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Cyb

Real-Time Cyb in 3057

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Hyena said:

Also, what's wrong with Halo?

a. you move like a snail
b. the "story" isn't worth the amount of integration it has into the game
c. poor weapon balance (pistol and shotgun is all you need)
d. incredibly weak max mouse sensitivity (and there's no config file to bump it more)
e. linear as fuck
f. boring map design

even still, i have to admit it's one of the better fpses i've played in recent years *sigh*

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Shaviro said:
Solution: c:\games\doom\doom.exe

Anyday and always!

Shaviro said:
Because it's the same additude as the anti-port people.

Who the fuck are these? They must rock, though, as they have an additude, as opposed to simply an attitude. Sounds much more positive and vibrant.

This project, though, is going to be liked by whoever happens to like it in particular, for whatever reason; stereotyped player-types notwithstanding. Also, why have you bothered setting a menu with variable player speeds, or is -turbo totally disabled in such a way that the users can't themselves modify the speed as they see fit?

Finally, if you ask for feedback in a forum where people constantly play DOOM pretty much as it is (i.e., keeping the player and monster stats practically unchanged) hours on end, because they like it, are you going to expect a YES! from anyone deciding to post on the thread in relation to a modification of a very basic feature of the game? You shouldn't dare present the change in public if that were your delusion... it would hurt.

Follow your own advice which is, according to your own words, your own judgement... it's not like no one will play it if a bunch of people don't like it, is it? Or did you want it to be, in the eyes of the mass of players combined, the best project ever? That's doubtfully possible for a project that DOOM 3izes DOOM in a place where people have have been playing DOOM for 10 years, whereas DOOM 3 isn't even out yet. Just do your own thing and let like-minded people enjoy it. Ignore those who don't like it unless they come up with an idea to share that's, in your eyes, surprisingly better.

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myk said:

a lot of crap


If you want the answers to your questions then go read my posts.
Why do you think we announced the 50% speed drop? We knew it was a controversial thing, so we wanted to know what people thought of it. Seeing as how it would prevent quite a bunch of people of enjoying the mod, I don't mind spending 5 seconds adding a speed menu. This changes nothing for the people who want to play it at 50%, so our "vision" of 3057 is intact.

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Yeah. You mean you just wanted to feel like the id guys coming out and saying "yeah, dude, now you have to choose between the flashlight or the pistol" or some such shocking bit of news.

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No. We wanted to see how it was received. To see if a speed menu was needed. What is your problem?

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Don't even bother trying to argue with myk, it's futile. He's just a stubborn oldschooler.

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Dare I join in on the fun! :) Ohh well, I just wanted to give my support to the decreased speed. I think it makes a lot of sence in a project such as this where the levels are going to be tight and "cramped". It has always been a problem with such levels when the player moved as quickly as he does in Doom. It is perfect, as someone pointed out earlier, in big open areas with 1000s of monsters and huge amounts of ammo. It is perfectly legit to decrease the speed in a project where almost anything else has been changed too, perhaps not to accomodate the 50% drop, but at least to work together with it.

And the (vast?) support majority lies with the decreased speed as I see it...

Now go ahead and flame me... my opinion will live on! ;)

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c-cooper said:

It has always been a problem with such levels when the player moved as quickly as he does in Doom.


It has never been a problem, ever.

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Ohh no!? I beg to differ. Try a small and narrow hallway with pillars, torches and curved walls and run down through it with max speed while dodging fireballs and what not and trying to stay alive the same time. That kills the fun. Period.

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3057 isn't that tight from what i've seen, it's not exactly gothic DM. And as Fredrik pointed out no autorun no problem.

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If you're one of these people who refuse to believe anything that changes the classic Doom gameplay in even the tiniest way can be good (note that I'm not saying changing the movement speed is a tiny change), why the heck are you upsetting yourself by playing ports and wads that do just that, let alone reading & posting in threads about ports and wads that do things you clearly hate?

Obviously other people don't hate such things and don't agree with anything you have to say on the subject, and guess what? You really are not going to be able to change our minds... just as we're not ever going to change yours. We all have our opinions, please don't trash them just because they conflict with yours.

If I were you, I'd simply stick to using the original doom(2) .exe and playing vanilla wads (of course you're eventually going to run low on new ones to play), and only read & reply to posts about the original .exe and vanilla wads. Doing that, plus dropping this obsessive need to make everyone else agree that "OMFG all ports = Quake!!!11111" or whatever, not only seems a sensible course of action, but would also make things far more pleasant for everyone involved.

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You can choose the speed now, so I really don't see what the problem is. Try 50%! Don't like it? Change to 75% or 100%!

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There is no problem, the speed option is appreciated. I'm just countering c-coopers 'it's for your own good' logic.

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Szymanski said:

...I'm just countering c-coopers 'it's for your own good' logic.


I give up... when we start twisting words like this... geeez! I don't even know where to begin. Ohh yeah I do: Read the post again!

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c-cooper said:

Try a small and narrow hallway with pillars, torches and curved walls and run down through it with max speed while dodging fireballs and what not and trying to stay alive the same time. That kills the fun. Period.


and trying to dodge the fireballs in slow motion doesn't kill the fun?
I prefer the option to try, which we all now have.

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I agree with myk. If you think 50% speed is best for the hub then that's what it should have. If you think the rocket launcher should be replaced with a giant penis that shoots rubber chickens, then you should do it. If people don't like it, then they can simply not play it (and I bet they will anyway). It's your wad, so do what you like and who cares about everyone else. Adding variable speed just seems like a cop-out against what you once thought was a great idea and a worthy change, but now you've let your mind be changed by a bunch of winey babies who haven't even played the friggin' thing yet? Come on, shaviro.

I know you have some wacked out idea in your head that you're making an actual game and not a Doom WAD and that RTC is going to be the most important WAD ever or whatever, but it's not. It's just a Doom wad. It looks great, and it has a lot of cool scripting and a pretty cool storyline, but it's just a Doom WAD. You're not going to change the face of Doom mapping, or the face of anything (except perhaps some people will undoubtebly make similar mods with a log system and so on), so just stick to your guns and make the best WAD in your mind, not the minds of a bunch of losers hanging out on a Doom forum.

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kristus said:

Personally I think an "overdrive" mode would have been a cool idea. so you could go about normal doom speed once in a while. I like the idea of having the player be at 50% it really ads to tension, and also might remind you of how doom was in the beginning, IE when we all had issues getting out of the way for the imp balls etc..

I'd go for such an option. Like a speed-berserk-pack. People could still get it using cheat codes and this could add to the gameplay.
I tried with 50% speed and I admit it feels "right". That is you have the feeling to be a kind of heavy cyborg.

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Cyb said:

I agree with myk. If you think 50% speed is best for the hub then that's what it should have.

I think 50% speed is the best thing for the hub and that is why it's still the standard speed. Nothing has changed for me.

It's your wad, so do what you like and who cares about everyone else.


Well, mine and a few others.

Adding variable speed just seems like a cop-out against what you once thought was a great idea and a worthy change, but now you've let your mind be changed by a bunch of winey babies who haven't even played the friggin' thing yet? Come on, shaviro.


Since when was my mind changed? 50% is still the standard speed and it's still the speed I am going to play it with. I don't see how adding an option, which only took 5 seconds to do, changes anything for me.

I know you have some wacked out idea in your head that you're making an actual game and not a Doom WAD and that RTC is going to be the most important WAD ever or whatever, but it's not.


No, no and no. RTC will be the most important WAD ever for me, but I know it will most likely never topple the other things out there. I am trying to make the best possible Doom WAD I can do, and with great help from others! Some day I am going to make mods for other games, and I am using RTC-3057 as practice. I am very serious about the development of this thing, but I am not making anything that will change the world. Don't put words in my mouth.

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Shaviro said:

Don't put words in my mouth.

Welcome to doomworld :-P

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I think the 50% speed sounds great. It's so easy to just run away at 90 miles an hour as it is, it'll be nice not having that option.

You can't please everyone Shaviro, you just gotta make what you want. You know that loads of people are gonna play it regardless and anyone who refuses to play because you made a creative decision they don't like is not important.

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Rellik said:

You can't please everyone Shaviro, you just gotta make what you want. You know that loads of people are gonna play it regardless and anyone who refuses to play because you made a creative decision they don't like is not important.


If I tried to please everyone, I surely would not have kept the blue palette, the floor puzzle or made it for Zdoom. I don't care if people play it at 50%, 75% or 100%. I actually like the option. I've even used it myself the last time I tested the wad. 50% when fighting monsters and 100% when going from point A to point B.

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Shaviro said:

No, no and no. RTC will be the most important WAD ever for me, but I know it will most likely never topple the other things out there. I am trying to make the best possible Doom WAD I can do, and with great help from others! Some day I am going to make mods for other games, and I am using RTC-3057 as practice. I am very serious about the development of this thing, but I am not making anything that will change the world. Don't put words in my mouth.


that's fine, and maybe I've misinterpreted you, but regardless my point was that you shouldn't worry about what everyone else thinks (without having ever played it, might I add, that's a pretty large key point, it's like saying Doom 3 is better than Half-Life 2) and keep the 50% speed, especially since the beta testers (including dsm, who would be the first and most outspoken to reject it, hehe) said it was fitting for the mod. Adding in this speed choice menu (regardless of how long it took to make) just seems like sacrificing creativity for the bitching of others. Others who, might I add (again), HAVEN'T EVEN PLAYED IT YET!!

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Cyb said:

that's fine, and maybe I've misinterpreted you, but regardless my point was that you shouldn't worry about what everyone else thinks (without having ever played it, might I add, that's a pretty large key point, it's like saying Doom 3 is better than Half-Life 2) and keep the 50% speed, especially since the beta testers (including dsm, who would be the first and most outspoken to reject it, hehe) said it was fitting for the mod. Adding in this speed choice menu (regardless of how long it took to make) just seems like sacrificing creativity for the bitching of others. Others who, might I add (again), HAVEN'T EVEN PLAYED IT YET!!


How is that a sacrifice?
Like I said so many times: It changes nothing for the people who want to play at 50%. One of the key words so far in 3057 has been flexibiliy. We are not forcing anyone to immerse themselves in the story either.

A sacrifice would be changing from 50% to 100%
After I have played the wad with the speed setting, I see some new options. I might change the speed based on what kind of situation I am in. Maybe later on I will put a limit on the 100% running and implement it as a sprint thing, I don't know. Right now I am comfortable with the speed menu. I think it adds a new dimension to the wad.

This menu system could change a lolzillion times from now and to release. Today I think the menu system is good, tomorrow I might try and create a stamina based sprint function. Whenever I find what I think is best, and as long as the team doesn't have too many complaints (it's their wad as well), I will keep changing it till I find the best solution. Maybe this is the best, I don't know.I do think this is a better solution than the 50% only, though.

If the end result is 50%, the menu system will prevail.
Right now I think something better can be produced.

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Cool. My only concern is how it affects gameplay, slowing the player down really hurts strafing. Which could well be frustrating*. Only you guys know what the actual affect is and I can only voice my concerns.

We all want to play a kickass mod and hopefully the next demo will make things a lot clearer.


*It certainly is when playing the demo

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Szymanski said:

Cool. My only concern is how it affects gameplay, slowing the player down really hurts strafing. Which could well be frustrating*. Only you guys know what the actual affect is and I can only voice my concerns.


Indeed. I think the strafing thing is a valid point. I never said 50% was the almighty solution, but only that it is better than 100%. Variable speed choices is better than 50% and perhaps the next 'experiment' will be better than variable speed choices. 50% suits hub1 pretty well, but doesn't suit cyb's hub very good. Just because I post a screenshot of a menu doesn't mean it will be the final solution.

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Personally I'd really like to see a Doom mod (not neccessarily RTC-3057 of course ;) ) that has some kind of RPG-like system, where as you gain experience things like movement speed, maximum armour & hitpoints, amount of damage done per shot/hit, etc increase :)

With ZDoom scripting and in-game menus, it's probably even possible to have "points", so you can actually chose which stat(s) to improve each time you "level up" ;)

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heh, nami and i had an idea like that earlier, but stopped because

a) we wanted to be able to script new monsters
b) we wanted to be able to script new weapons
c) i wanted png support so the texture wad wouldn't get too huge
d) we disagreed on what to make it for; nami wanted doom so more people would play it, i preferred hexen since we'd be using a lot of hexen resources anyway

at least a and c are no longer problems :P

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When we were presented with the idea of reducing player speed, I instantly argued that "At least 50% of DW would be howling for your blood should you reduce the movement speed" (adressing Shaviro who came up with the idea.) - it's funny how once again, my predictions hold relatively true :-P

Szymanski said:

Cool. My only concern is how it affects gameplay, slowing the player down really hurts strafing. Which could well be frustrating*. Only you guys know what the actual affect is and I can only voice my concerns.

Well, considering the level design, I wasn't bothered in the least about the slower strafing. It's still pretty easy to dodge attacks like fireballs, especially because hub1 has a lot of places where you can get behind cover. I like the reduced speed because it makes you feel more like a soldier in a combat situation rather than a futuristic sort of uber-maneuverable infantry tank on wheels.

Of course, later level design will have to take the slower strafing speed into consideration should we stick with the 50% reduction of speed - but as long as it fits the level design (and vice versa) I don't see any issues with it.
If I ever get frustrated about slow player speed, it's usually because the levels aren't designed with the speed in mind and such level design makes slow movement speed a chore.

But then, my play style has always been pretty adaptive...

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sargebaldy said:

a. you move like a snail
b. the "story" isn't worth the amount of integration it has into the game
c. poor weapon balance (pistol and shotgun is all you need)
d. incredibly weak max mouse sensitivity (and there's no config file to bump it more)
e. linear as fuck
f. boring map design

even still, i have to admit it's one of the better fpses i've played in recent years *sigh*


a. you move like a guy wearing half a ton of armor.
b. the story has plenty of originality and depth. you've just been playing DOOM too long.
c. you don't get the shotgun until two thirds of the way through the game, and even then the ammo isn't plentiful, which is why constant weapon swapping is required.
d. slow down, switch to decaf, and i assure you: you can still beat the game with your all-important dignity. i did.
e. it was as unlinear as a first person shooter like HALO needs to be.
f. ...yeah, but pretty nice to look at. and still FUN FUN FUN!

end of discussion.

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