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Rob McKai

The Secret Levels In Doom 3

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Just wondering, how many levels do you think Doom 3 will have in it? Will it be like the original three episode affair with 8 missions per episode? Or will it be a straight up 32 level game like Doom 2 was? Anyway the point is, I heard that Doom 3 is in essence a remake of the original but I'm guessing that none of the maps will bare any resemblance to the original missions. Hence the fact that this game is apparantly far more clustraphobic and the original game had some half decent open areas. If so do you think one or two of the secret levels will be revamped original levels enhanced in the new engine just for fun factor alone? I think I'd like to see E1M2 remade.

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Didn't they said once in a article that there weren't actual levels kinda like HL ? I think they also said that some areas will look a bit like some room in the original. I'd like to see E1M1 remade with textures, desing and monsters from D3.

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if there are no levels and all the game is strung together, that would be like metroid prime. ick!
we'll have to see

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I kinda hope there is levels, just done up a little better, like minus the intermission screen's and kill percents.
Even though HL's non-stop gameplay was done really well.

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Info on this seems to change a lot, but last I heard (which is at least half a year ago), Doom 3 was said (by an Id employee!) to end up having about 30 pretty large maps.
The game won't have levels per se, more like one continous setting (only broken up by areas where the game needs to load the next map - it's pretty much like in Half Life).

The same Id employee also said that experienced FPS veterans would probably be able to beat the game over a weekend, so don't expect a tremendously long game.

As far as secret levels go, I doubt Doom 3 will have those (since the game won't have clearly separated levels), but it might have large secret areas with cool easter eggs.

A nice secret map would be nice, but it's also not realistic given the time and effort it takes to make a good map nowadays.

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See, it's a bad thing to take the stats and kill percentage screens off, because there is no measure of how well you did. Addictive gameplay is almost always based on doing something and then trying to find better ways to do it. Tetris was addictive because of the constant hunger to play again and try for that better score or lower time. Diablo II was addictive because of the constant search for better items, ladder competition, and strategizing as to which areas are the best to play in. If the only measure of success is dead / not dead, then the only reason to continue playing is to watch the same static gutscenes over and over.

Replayability value is by far the most important and underdeveloped aspect of games in general.

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IMO they shouldn't have continueous gameplay. In interviews Romero was always adamant about keeping it simplistic, thats what makes the original great. I'll be gutted to find that Doom 3 uses continuous gameplay ala half-life and that you need to push a million keys just to reload your bfg or open a door. Simple is best. Get gun, collect ammo, push switches, collect keys shoot fuck out of ugly demons in a super cool engine that looks like a sci-fi horror movie. Thats what Doom 3 should be. Not a half-life, run and hide every time you need to reload your shotgun effort.

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Who cares about the damn Stats and Kill Percentages?! Take them of non-stop gameplay is better and more realistic dammit!

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Rob McKai said:

IMO they shouldn't have continueous gameplay. In interviews Romero was always adamant about keeping it simplistic, thats what makes the original great. I'll be gutted to find that Doom 3 uses continuous gameplay ala half-life and that you need to push a million keys just to reload your bfg or open a door.

And how exactly does continuous gameplay make the game complex?

It's more immersive that way.

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Rob McKai said:

It doesn't I just think they're better sticking with the original concept of levels.

And use sprites instead of models?

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AndrewB said:

See, it's a bad thing to take the stats and kill percentage screens off, because there is no measure of how well you did. Addictive gameplay is almost always based on doing something and then trying to find better ways to do it. Tetris was addictive because of the constant hunger to play again and try for that better score or lower time. Diablo II was addictive because of the constant search for better items, ladder competition, and strategizing as to which areas are the best to play in. If the only measure of success is dead / not dead, then the only reason to continue playing is to watch the same static gutscenes over and over.

Replayability value is by far the most important and underdeveloped aspect of games in general.


That's exactly what I wanted to hear and I agree with you 100%. Don't even make me start talking about Nights into Dreams for the Saturn. That is a VERY replayable game. Earthbound too that ga... Ok I'll shut up now.

dsm said:

And how exactly does continuous gameplay make the game complex?

It's more immersive that way.


I think continuous gameplay makes a game more complex because you have to go back and forth at times and remember where to go after finding something you were looking for etc. But continuous gameplay like for Doom would suck. I picture it being you hit the exit switch (it would probly have to be doors instead), there's no percentage screen about your kills or anything, and you just play throughout this whole entire huge game collecting the same thing (keys) for hours with alot less to motivate you (motivation is the part that keeps me in the game. That's why I like the percentage screen. It motivates me to play better-different) except to reveal the ending and killing guys.

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Holering said:

I think continuous gameplay makes a game more complex because you have to go back and forth at times and remember where to go after finding something you were looking for etc. But continuous gameplay like for Doom would suck. I picture it being you hit the exit switch (it would probly have to be doors instead), there's no percentage screen about your kills or anything, and you just play throughout this whole entire huge game collecting the same thing (keys) for hours with alot less to motivate you (motivation is the part that keeps me in the game. That's why I like the percentage screen. It motivates me to play better-different) except to reveal the ending and killing guys.

Doom 3 will have a compelling storyline - that will have you hungry for more story revelations, therefore, the ol' level structure is unnecessary. And btw, Quake 2 worked perfectly without the usual percentage screen and the ability to go back and forth between levels.

The continuous gameplay allows for more freedom and is excellently complemented by the fact that the game has a (hopefully) well thought out story and characters.
Also, Doom 3 will have more imperative locations like the Delta Labs, so when you get to the Delta Labs, one could say you've "completed" a level of the game - you've accomplĂ­shed a goal, which brings me on to the fact that Doom 3 will also have mission objectives to keep you motivated to go on.

I respect your opinion, but I cannot agree with your reasons.

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The most important thing for me is and will always be the first you play the game. Replayability is further down the ladder. The game will never be the same after you've completed it once anyway.

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Shaviro said:

The game will never be the same after you've completed it once anyway.

Doom kept growing on me the first 5-10 (at least) times I played it. Partially because "completing" it still left most of the secrets undiscovered and the hardest difficulty settings unbeaten. And I still have a lot things left to complete, for instance beating every episode except KDITD on NIGHTMARE! :P

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There are a lot of other ways in games today to create a higher replay value. Novelty things like different costumes, or more intersting things like different endings, new players to play as etc. And also a final screen displaying how well you did. Obviously D3 will not have a lot of these features (Doom guy in a dress or Doom t-shirt... I think not), different endings (you either defeat hell or die, not many logical possibilities for mult endings) for example. But unlocking hidden features like a level done like the original doom or some other easter eggs would be good. Usually for me, if the game was enjoyable, id be apt to play it again rather than for the stats screens. Just me though. I'd like to see Quake 1 monsters in it or something. I don't count of id for easter eggs though... they seem too serious.

But the number one reason for replay value is:

MODDING!

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dsm said:

Doom 3 will have a compelling storyline - that will have you hungry for more story revelations, therefore, the ol' level structure is unnecessary. And btw, Quake 2 worked perfectly without the usual percentage screen and the ability to go back and forth between levels.

The continuous gameplay allows for more freedom and is excellently complemented by the fact that the game has a (hopefully) well thought out story and characters.
Also, Doom 3 will have more imperative locations like the Delta Labs, so when you get to the Delta Labs, one could say you've "completed" a level of the game - you've accomplĂ­shed a goal, which brings me on to the fact that Doom 3 will also have mission objectives to keep you motivated to go on.


Very well said I like it. But there's something you said that I didn't like...

dsm said:

I respect your opinion, but I cannot agree with your reasons.


That leaves me wondering... *Thinking will DSM still be willing to have little ones with me?*

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Doom 3 will have a compelling storyline - that will have you hungry for more story revelations

I think the original story worked fine. I don't feel the need to talk to half dead marine no. 16344 to find out that I need to activate power generator no. 42345 in order to get onto the next part of the level, where I have to shut off three switches to shut down the turbo fans so I can get onto the next part of the level through the air vents. BORING! I just want to collect keys, guns and shoot demons. Beleive it or not this simple concept is what makes the original great. If I want crappy b-movie storylines in my video games I'll play deus-ex or some other shitty game. Mark my words, DOOM 3 WILL SUCK!

I'll be looking more forward to the user maps that will be created in the old simplistic gameplay style, maybe even some remakes of the original levels rather than feeling like im taking part in some poorly scripted sci-fi b-movie. Now don't get me wrong the poorly scripted sci-fi b-movie thing was fun in Half-Life but Doom 3 deserves better than that.

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It is indeed appearing as though Doom 3 will suck quite a bit. A year ago, I had no idea, but now it's pretty clear.

And whoever said that replayability value can be added by giving the player different characters to play as, or a different selection of clothes (...), okay, there is seriously something wrong with you.

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If the team makes modding the game as easy as it was for the original Dooms, then it should be worth it.

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I reckon they'll have at least some kind of secret level; they have had them in pretty much every single player game since Wolf3d. And I imagine the legendary status of the Doom series will invite easter eggs and references to the previous installments.

As for replayability, I must admit that I'm not expecting much at all from the out-of-the box campaign.

//Edit: Oh god, oh god - I found a "teh"

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Rob McKai said:

I WANT TO BE BANNED


I you only like mindless arcade shooters, stick with them and stop whining on here. Saying "Doom3 will suck" on a Doom3 board and in caps is really a banbegging. Stop it if you wish to continue the debate. Don't mix opinion with fact.

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AndrewB said:

It is indeed appearing as though Doom 3 will suck quite a bit. A year ago, I had no idea, but now it's pretty clear.

And whoever said that replayability value can be added by giving the player different characters to play as, or a different selection of clothes (...), okay, there is seriously something wrong with you.

That someone was me and I didn't say that I thought that, (read:novelty value as I stated) just that some developers put that option in their games as an easter egg for beating the game. Since it happens after beating the game, and can only be used playing it again, common sense drew me to the conclusion that if it is included to use in a REPLAY of the game, it must be for REPLAY value.

Scabbed Angel said:

There are a lot of other ways in games today to create a higher replay value. Novelty things like different costumes, or more intersting things like different endings, new players to play as ...

Some people like to play as other characters. If I had xbox and could play as Maria in SH2 with the different story line, or like in RE2, I would be more than happy to as it might explain things from a different perspective of the game I love. If that means something is wrong with me, meh. Its a continuation of the game. On the other hand, though different comstumes (like Douglas in SH3 only wearing underwear) are funny, but no, not a huge replay incentive.

Now as for Doom 3 goes, this is obviously not really appropriate. Being a first person without dialoge, so I can see where you were coming from with your reaction. I was just trying to list options that games use all around to attempt CREATE replay value. I think stat screens in D3 are equally pointless though, as imersion is a huge goal in this game. Its not an arcade game afterall. As far as immersion goes, though I've never killed someone, in real life I can't imagine that a screen would pop in front of you eyes stating your kill count. Well... if you are crazy enough to kill someone, it may be a better possibility, but you see my point.

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I you only like mindless arcade shooters, stick with them and stop whining on here. Saying "Doom3 will suck" on a Doom3 board and in caps is really a banbegging. Stop it if you wish to continue the debate. Don't mix opinion with fact

When you get a life... get back to me. :)

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Rob McKai said:

When you get a life... get back to me. :)

Useless flame much? If you like arcade games, that's cool... but because D3 isn't one doesn't make it suck, it makes it something that might not be your taste. If you're going to express your dissatisfactions, why not be a little more constructive about it? Flamming pointlessly is not a way to make you popular or appear mature. And Shaviro is right:Where is the supermarket? I mean... you might get banned. Play fair.

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Rob McKai said:

I think the original story worked fine. I don't feel the need to talk to half dead marine no. 16344 to find out that I need to activate power generator no. 42345 in order to get onto the next part of the level, where I have to shut off three switches to shut down the turbo fans so I can get onto the next part of the level through the air vents. BORING!


man, tahts not what a story is about. take halo for example, all you did was shoot stuff, and you just picked up the story as you go along, as opposed to splinter cell where you were picking up data sticks and sneaking around. and which one had the better story?

a good story makes a great game all the more interesting, as long as its not force-fed down your throat, like rainbow six, never did like all that briefing garbage.

and about GTA? it was a giant playground of killing and interactive gameplay, not to mention the cool weapons. that was great, but then you toss the seldom known about missions and objectives and you have one hell of a game.
(not that it quite compare to doom tho.)

point taken?

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Rob McKai said:

When you get a life... get back to me. :)


Watch out who you try to insult on here. In fact, try to debate instead of insulting people/making flamebait.

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Er, Rob McKai's criticism of Doom 3 seems pretty well-formed to me. He stated precisely why he thinks the game will suck - which is constructive, and that it will suck, which is clearly his opinion and not yours. No flamebait there.

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Er, Rob McKai's criticism of Doom 3 seems pretty well-formed to me. He stated precisely why he thinks the game will suck - which is constructive, and that it will suck, which is clearly his opinion and not yours. No flamebait there.

Cheers bud, maybe saying it will suck is a little harsh... but I do think there's a good chance of it being a let down.

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