Doom2 on nightmare difficulty

[Lavarn]

I'm sure people have asked about this before. Nightmare difficulty is so damn hard that I'm wondering if it might be impossible. I've seen some demos of people claiming to beat all 30 levels on nightmare (does zdoom still not support demos?), but I was under the impression that it was done through cheating...slowing down the frames or some similar thing.

As for me, well I'm not very good (I use the keyboard lol), but it's pretty easy to beat levels 1 and 2. With some work, I managed to beat level 3, so I'm sure that's possible. How high can you go?

[Grazza]

To watch the 30nm demos (i.e. full-game runs through Doom2 on Nightmare), you need to use Doom2.exe or a recent version of Prboom or Eternity. The ones at compet-n are not tool assisted, and no cheats are used.

It is extremely difficult though. Only a few people have managed a 30nm run, and that is with very carefully worked-out routes, a great deal of practice, and a large number of attempts.

By the way, you can use a forum search (like this) whenever you feel like asking a question that has surely been asked before.

[Ryback]

Just watch all the demos, experiment with the various routes and see what works best, memorize your chosen route, and practice a lot. Keyboard is not a handicap.

[Andy Johnsen]

Ryback said:

Just watch all the demos, experiment with the various routes and see what works best, memorize your chosen route, and practice a lot. Keyboard is not a handicap.

Keyboard only is not a handicap? Err, common :) Its certainly possible to do great stuff with keys only as you've proven many a time, but its limited. I'd highly reccomend using a mouse if you're going for a 30nm run, unless you wanna raise the challenge.

[dr_st]

Can't we have one thread that won't turn into a discussion on whether the keyboard is a handicap or not?

[DEMOn]

The only difference is that keyboarders cannot turn as quickly... but there have been several impressive keyboarder-only players over the years.
I would consider it a handicap, but it certainly hasn't restricted Ryback (and others) from acheiving the highest level of playing.

[DEMOn]

dr_st said:

Can't we have one thread that won't turn into a discussion on whether the keyboard is a handicap or not?

yes. :)
but it is a fact that a keyboard-only setup cannot do what a mouse/keys setup can... so it is a handicap.
A better way to put Ryback's words, IMVHO, "A keyboard-only setup doesn't hinder you productivity... there's no reason you can't do what keyboard/mousers can."

[VinceDSS]

Some maps will require you to do 180 degrees instant turns to quickly close a door in order not to be fried by some shots behind you. Thats especially right in Nightmare.

Also in DM, it's rather usefull to be able to turn instantly to be able to face your opponent as he runs around you. Keybeoard will make you turn at constant speed and leave time to your opponent to kill you without any threat.

There are some tools that allows you to do 180 turns with a single key. I dont know if they allowed tho. I suppose they should.

[dr_st]

VinceDSS said:

There are some tools that allows you to do 180 turns with a single key. I dont know if they allowed tho. I suppose they should.

You're damn right they're should. However, it won't solve all problems, because even if you can do an instant turn, you don't have the sensitivity that you can get with a mouse. For example, what if you don't want a 180 degrees turn, but a very quick 90 degrees (or 120 degrees) one? With a keyboard you're stuck, but with a mouse you could do it, if your feel of the controller is good, which it probably will be with some practice.

[dr_st]

DEMOn said:

The only difference is that keyboarders cannot turn as quickly... but there have been several impressive keyboarder-only players over the years.

And that is indeed the ONLY difference, because DOOM has no freelook and no need to aim super-duper accurately to hit something. Everything else is a matter of personal convenience.

I, for one, prefer to play the way I'm used to (which is keyb-only). For me, forcing me to play a control setup I don't like is more of a handicap, than not being able to do insta-turns. And, yes, I'm fully aware that it's possible to adjust to anything. I just don't have the time or will to do so.

[Grimm]

It's *really* easy to get used to the mouse, dude.

[Andy Johnsen]

dr_st said:

And that is indeed the ONLY difference, because DOOM has no freelook and no need to aim super-duper accurately to hit something. Everything else is a matter of personal convenience.

Well I played for over two years intensively keys only myselfe, so I know the deal. The fact that you can do these instant turns adds a whole new level of agility. You can not reach the same level of play keys only, thats particulary evident when playing deathmatch.

dr_st said:
I, for one, prefer to play the way I'm used to (which is keyb-only). For me, forcing me to play a control setup I don't like is more of a handicap, than not being able to do insta-turns. And, yes, I'm fully aware that it's possible to adjust to anything. I just don't have the time or will to do so. [/B]

Well, play the way you enjoy. However, getting all defensive and pretending keys only to be a minor setback is arguing a lost case.

As a player I think the variety strong keyboard playing brings to the singleplayer scene is both interesting and welcome. Very neat to see Ryback do the sorta stuff he does with keys only, especially when you consider its a limited style of playing.

[Mogul]

EDIT - On the original topic, Nightmare pretty much is unbeatable if you try to play it like most people play Ultra Violence. Killing almost every monster in the map and taking your time being immersed in the game is not how Nightmare works. There's simply not enough ammo to compensate for the respawning monsters. Serious planning, and LOTS of rehearsal are the only ways to beat the game on Nightmare. That and some really serious movement skills.

On the other issue, I think the bottom line is that keyboarding is _sufficient_ for some high level single player, and maybe even against less skilled players in deathmatch, but it really is silly to say it's not a handicap in deathmatch.

Even if you can enjoy some degree of success, there is no way you could play at Johnsen's or Ocelot's (etc) level.

[DEMOn]

mje said:

Even if you can enjoy some degree of success, there is no way you could play at Johnsen's or Ocelot's (etc) level.

other than deathmatch (I assume here as they have never played) Ryback _IS_ as good as Johnsen and Ocelot... their styles and expertises are different of course.
Chris' point was that the keyboard-only users are not dehabilitated at all.
I just can't imagine playing Quake-style games with just the keys. :)

[myk]

As far as playing level is concerned, in relation to results, yes, a mouse will get you ahead, making you faster and more dextrous. Yet gauging skill is relative to the setup in question; you can't just compare the results obtained through keyboard only with those of a mouse user. The mouse user may come out as faster, yet the keyboard player could well have more experience and might be more resourceful overall.

So, like Andy Johnsen pointed out, it's cool that some people stick to the keyboard only setup; the best results with such as setup are pretty much as meritable as the best results with the mouse and keyboard combo, in their own right.

[Andy Johnsen]

Well, skill can be defined in a few ways I guess, but if its getting the fastest time in a given compet-n category, you can't put a keyboarder up against ocelot (and I dislike being grouped with that guy myselfe, his ability to do speed is only equaled by Sedlo imho), and yes that include Ryback :) And thats not only a question of style and preference imo, its in general. High level keyboarding does n ot reach high level mousing in the skill department, and its not even a fair comparison imo.

All respect to Ryback, but being realistic its not fair to put Ocelot and Ryback on the same level of skill (for all it matters).

Heh, I wonder if this topic would feel more at home in the demo thread.

[BlueSonnet]

You can also practise by playing ultra violence with fast monsters on. That way you can be more prepared for the monster's lightning fast reflexes on nightmare.

Other than that, knowing your maps well and being able to get in and get out is crucial to your survival in nightmare.

[myk]

Andy Johnsen said:
Heh, I wonder if this topic would feel more at home in the demo thread.

If the Forum were called Playing instead of Demos it would be easier to bunch up threads like this one (discussing playing) with the ones specifically about recordings. I remember once a thread about "what playing styles do you prefer?" was moved to Demos when no one had (yet) even mentioned demos. But threads about demos and threads about playing styles or tips certainly do fit together quite well.

[DEMOn]

no one equals ocelot's speed... plus he could be the best dm player.. and he has possibly the most beautiful Iwad max demo...
hmm, if he was female, he might be perfect... :P

[Andy Johnsen]

haha

[Ryback]

What the hell are you doing comparing me to Ocelot, Op? Go watch lv10-025 again :p

I didn't mean to open that old keyboard-only/non-keyboard-only can of worms again. What I meant in my original post was, keyboard only control is not a handicap if you just want to complete the game on nightmare. It is a handicap for lots of other things, just not that.

Anyway, here's my foolproof training regime. Follow this and you'll be a D2S-er in no time.

1. Complete every Doom and Doom2 level on UV from scratch.
2. Complete every Doom and Doom2 level on UV, under par.
3. Complete every Doom and Doom2 level on UV, with -fast.
4. Complete every Doom and Doom2 episode on UV, under par.
5. Complete every Hell Revealed level, on UV.
6. Complete every Doom and Doom2 level on nightmare.
7. Complete every Doom and Doom2 episode on nightmare.
8. Do the whole game.

[Lavarn]

Haha, using this thread for keyboard vs. mouse is fine by me - my original question was answered, that is actually is possible to beat every level in doom/doom2 on nightmare (without cheating).

As for the keyboard-only thing, I use it mainly because it was what I did when I first started playing FPS games. I don't think you could use the mouse in the original version of doom, but I might be totally wrong about that. Anyway, it seems playable in doom because of the up and down autoaim (don't know the technical term for this), but if you try to use it in a game like quake it is much harder. I actually did spend some time learning to use the mouse for quake, but people were already so damn good at that game I felt I could never catch up. Keyboard-only will always feel more natural to me I guess.

[Torn]

Lavarn said:

I don't think you could use the mouse in the original version of doom, but I might be totally wrong about thatAn.

The mouse works in vanila doom2. But the mouse works quite more differnt than the Ports' mouse does.

[InfraRed]

mouse only inhibits my playing of doom! keyboard or broke......thats why im scared for doom3 b/c i wont be able to play keyboard only =(

[xit-vono]

well I can say that I think it was worthwhile to learn to use a mouse. You may find at first it's awkward to use a mouse especially with the forward and backwards movement so if you get novert that should help. Don't worry about strafe50 at first. You should perhaps set up a strafe50 button like I do anyways but don't worry about using it. Then find a sensitivity that works for you and it plays sort of like a modern 3d game without mlook, which isn't really needed for doom. If you don't have novert you can achive that effect in prboom by disabling vertical sensitivity in the menu. And anyways I thought I was a pretty good player with keyboard only but that doesn't mean that there was room for improvement with the mouse.