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Scabbed Angel

Bible?! I'm a patriot!

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According to the bible, murder is exclusively forbidden (unless God tells you to ; P) and deemed a mortal sin. People who kill according to the Bible, and are not sorry or repentive of this crime, go to hell. I know many of you do not believe in the teachings of the bible... I'm asking this question theoretically; You don't have to be Christian to know of its teachings, and I'd welcome all of your comments and ideas on this:

If someone goes to war and kills another person because they were following orders, and are not sorry because they were "fighting for their country" would that mean that by the Bible's teachings that that person would go to hell? I don't see why not, and I think that American Christians (elsewhere too, perhaps, but I'm discussing this as an American mentality I observe) tend to shove the Bible in people's faces when they are not doing/being what they want them to do/be, but when it comes to applying to america as a whole, (patriotism0 they shove the book under the bed and put out their money and point to the phrase "One nation under God". I find this to be disgustingly convienent, and unfair.

There is no draft. If people choose to go into the military, they know they are putting themselves into a position where there is a possiblility that they will face this situation. Why should they be absolved of their accountability because they are "protecting the country"? What if I decide to protect the country from what the bible teaches to be immorality and start killing everyone who opposes its teachings? Well, I'd be labeled a serial killer, a terrorist, or just plain insane. Why the double standard? Perhaps I'm just an idealist, but isn't what's good for the goose, good for the gander?

The man who dropped the bomb on hiroshima was confronted by a man who had his skin melted off his body when the blast occured, on a television show, simply asking for an appology. The bomber stated, "I am not sorry, I was following orders." Well, you killed how many people with either the direct blast, or the nuclear fallout that occured in its aftermath. You're not sorry? You were just following orders? Fuck you. Why should someone like that be excluded from the laws of these their own religion?

I thought this was an interesting idea, and though I'm sure this thread may be full of "I hate God and religion" comments, I'm intersted in your collective opinions; how can Christians be so convienent in their beliefs? Shouldn't it apply to the individual actions of a person and not the "cause"?

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The article says:
In this passage, Jesus says: "My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would be fighting, that I might not be delivered up to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not of this realm." When Jesus says that if his kingdom were of this world his servants would be fighting, he implies that it is right for kingdoms of this world to fight when the cause is just and circumstances require it. As Christians, we are citizens of "two kingdoms"--our country on earth, and heaven. Jesus shows us that it is never right to fight for the sake of his spiritual kingdom, but that it is right to fight on behalf of earthly kingdoms (when necessary to counter evil and destruction).


It's at this point that the article becomes increasingly ridiculous. While it's a fun project to poke around in the Bible and search for passages that support whatever agenda you may have-- no one seems to realize that The Bible is NOT the end all, be all of an argument(and this probably rings true more often for those who study it).

The passage that the above segment dissects is taken out of context or offered without any interpretation; as are the rest of the quotes in the article, but moreso in this example(the only attempt to "read between the lines" is found in the "turn the other cheek/overcome evil with good" passage, a passage that sadly leaves no room for violent response). The passage hardly sounds like an assertation of Truth and The Way, as if he were on the mountain passing out fish. It's a very personal decree of having been wronged and it fits well with Jesus's overall attitude. Bear in mind that his final days were wrought with doubt and desperation; time and time again he spoke with God, pleading that if there were any way that he did not have to fulfill his destiny, God should guide him toward it.

Son of God or not, we must come to the conclusion that Jesus was an everyday human with fears and desires-- and as such, he obviously didn't take a shine to being lashed, humiliated, skewered, and hung out to dry. Jesus was a very spiritually powerful man with a sharp insight on human nature, but he wasn't a masochist. "...But as it is, my Kingdom is not of this realm" is a passive-aggressive muttering of resignation, not an excuse to raid a country. And it's just as I said before: the article at this point goes on to make outrageous claims such as "Romans 13:3-4 grants governments the right to use force". Firstly, it didn't GRANT them the right to do ANYTHING; we're looking at the Bible, not the Constitution. Secondly: if you've read any of Paul's letters to the Romans, they all sound similar in the way that they pander to ruling classes to make them appear more clandestine or untouchable, if you will. I believe telemarketers and online survey subcontracts these days use the same tactics.

But wait-- why am I arguing this? In what way does this article do a good job of rebutting Scabbed's post? None, unless you take the word of a single author as gospel(so to speak). But I'd be glad to offer my opinion-- and when you have enough opinions, you can make your own which makes complete sense to you and will carry your faith until something shakes it(usually old age).

First, we have to come to a decision to what God thinks about death and murder. If he has a follower on earth who is murdered and comes to Heaven, what has he lost? Nothing: one of his loving followers is now closer to him and able to experience a more pure form of love. Now-- whether you believe in reincarnation or not, it boils down to this: we are born, we live, and we come home(if we have led a good life). Wait, where'd that "if we led a good life" come from? Well, I personally don't believe in Hell, so why do we need to live a good life first? Why don't we all kill ourselves when we're 13 years old so we can be back with God as soon as possible? We could-- but how much good have we done? Keep in mind that we are not "lost souls" trying to find our way back... we are the creation of God and at one point in time we were with Him. If you believe in the Garden of Eden(the story of which was highly metaphorical), you could easily see that we were with God, but chose to lead the life of suffering. Why? The only logical reason I can come up with is the fact that WE WANTED TO LEARN. We wanted to live this painful, boring, disease-ridden life because it was a learning experience-- and it's God's gift to us.

Sounds kind of sick, right? Suffering is God's gift? I wholeheartedly agree that it does. See, the key is Evolution. We as beings are meant to evolve. To learn everything about our current state of being. It's through that that we use as a qualification in order to rise to a higher plane of existence. I'm sure pain and suffering at first was a foreign concept to God in his grand perfection. But we offered up our time and sanity in order to learn for him. Well, I could go on about this for hours, but...

LET ME GET TO THE POINT. (bolded for people who are skimming through this post)

Where does this fit in to the whole "killing for good" thing? Well, it doesn't. There is no killing for good, at least as far as we should be concerned. We want to end killing, right? We want to end suffering? Well, imagine what kind of conflict you would go through if you killed someone. You yourself would suffer, don't you think? Eventually you'd learn to hide it well, but it would eat away at you until you died. Now, pretend that you needed to relive the moment because it was nothing like you'd ever seen. The experience was just too different to do only once. The suffering dissipates for a moment, due to the primal adrenaline rush. Your previous suffering had gone away-- for a short while, at least. But could this really be your medicine? Is this the only way to feel better about murder? These are questions that a serial killer(if he did in fact feel remorse) would offer up to God while killing other people. Add to this the suffering of the victims and the victims' friends and families... you have a pretty devastating effect on a large group of people for an action that only took a few minutes. If this is how much God learns from a knife fight, imagine how he feels when an aircraft lays napalm over a suburb.

And imagine the conflict the person who dropped the A-Bomb felt. One, he could have driven himself insane over it. He would have died an old man with thousands of deaths on his head, full of regret and shame... and he would've taken that final moment, that final assessment of his life, and he would offer it to God. But what if he truly felt in life that he did the right thing? Would he still feel that as he went to Heaven? Would he walk up to the gates and say, "I killed for you, God! They're all dead! I did good, right"? No, of course he wouldn't. Unless you truly believe everyone in Hiroshima was a murderer just by the rule of Guilt By Association(but if you believe in that rule, YOU'RE screwed too). He would go up to Heaven and say, "what the hell was I thinking? I murdered thousands in a matter of minutes, and I truly believed that was a good thing". THAT is what I mean by "suffering as a learning experience". I'd imagine that "trying not to feel bad about killing people" isn't quite a foreign concept to God in this day and age, but one that's complex enough that we still obviously have a need to come back and learn more.

It may sound like I'm saying "God feels murder is a necessity", but I'm not. Murder is always wrong, and God has been "learning" that for some time. And what he learns, we bring back to earth with us-- our better understanding of suffering, our collective firsthand experiences with mustard gas... all of it. And the faster we learn EVERYTHING about pain and suffering, the faster we can get the HELL out of here and go back with God.

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Religion was made up by the rich to control the poor, 2ndly if the were no religions, there wouldnt be so many wars.

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Liberation said:
2ndly if the were no religions, there wouldnt be so many wars.

actually, that part I find hard to believe.

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go do some history, and maybe have a think about israel(?) and that. in case you've forgotton the trouble out there, is about the small piece of holy land, which was actully part palinstien(?), but because they were muslims, israel didnt like that and started up all this trouble. And then the US step in just helping maybe! but then you wonder why the 2 Towers happerned, don't you.

The bible- yer well good, killed more people than any other weapon in the world.

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I'm sorry, but I disagree. While religion might be useful to drum up support for a war, the war it’s self will be about something else. For example, the whole Israelis vs Palestinian basically boils down to territory. I’d bet a large some of money that, even if both sides decide to abandon there faith tomorrow, they’d still be at it tooth and nail the next day. Oh sure, there are clerics saying “if you blow yourself to bits on a bus full of Jews then you will go to haven” but the Koran says nothing to that effect, they really are just desperate crazy fucks who want to kill a bunch of people, and hey, if you can be prised for it, even better!

That said, it might be a little harder to get your followers to abandon reason with out divine interference, but religion alone is not sufficient.

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Liberation said:

And that territory is.... were Jesus was born (apprantley)

Jesus was born in the Bronx.

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Ct_red_pants said:

War = Bad? Get out of my contry you commie terriost!

What's that? Some sort of dog?

About the title, I thought this was going to be about Mel Gibson

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In the end, commands are for the weak and the credulous; the bible might have many of them prohibiting violence and abuse, but if you look at it from a perspective of examples, you'll see that it's quite warlike, and that both God and the men that show up in the action are often quite belligerent, and that the general flow of the books lead to war, with peace as a promise.

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Yep myk, the Bible is quite strange on murder; there is certainly much ass-kicking in the Old Testament.

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Danarchy said:

America is the Great Satan, so we're all going to Hell anyway.

Heh, I wish it wasn't so. I don't know how familiar you are with the bible, but in the book of Revelations it metaphorically described the great whore of babylon and the fall of its towers. Given that rome isn't the superpower it once was, and now that we are the new Rome in a sense, I wonder if this could theoritically be applied to 9-11. Thoughts?

To Lut: I can't argue that article poses a lot of interesting points. There is a very good and funny thread in Post Hell entitled "Dr. Ruth" which makes great points about the contriditions and outdatedness (real word?) of Leviticus. If any of you haven't read it, check it out.
To Numbermind: Great thourough and very intelligent post.

I know I tend to be an idealist; I know how things are and I wish they weren't that way. I feel torn sometimes between believing in the words of Christ, and being ashamed to be a Christian for the sake of most others I've met. Lut, you've brought new questions to my thoughts on this, and Numbermind, you've brought answers to some of those. Thanks everyone to contributing, this didn't turn out like I feared.

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Obviously killing breeds justice.</SARCASM>

That said, killing that doesn't prevent more killing -- if the life you take doesn't save two -- it's wrong. I suppose one could argue "quality over quantity" here, but who's to evaluate another human?

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Isn't that effectively what you're doing, when comparing the one life lost to the two saved?

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DooMAD said:

Isn't that effectively what you're doing, when comparing the one life lost to the two saved?

Ultraviolet said:

...but who's to evaluate another human?

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Ct_red_pants said:
actually, that part I find hard to believe.

Basically because it's impossible. Religion persists as long as there's misery, poverty and concentrated power aside; its the "mental" parallel to them. What is religion about other than torment, and wishing for a release from it, and the rules as to how to supposedly avoid it (especially in the end)? Religion and doom go hand in hand and can't be without one another. Reilion's neither a cause nor a cure for suffering, but a mass verbal sidenote of the hapless reactions of breaking humanity, especially unto itself, before the myriad faces of the life and death we see around us.

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It's not a christian thing, it's a human thing. People must always look for a way to justify their actions. We know murder is wrong, but war is sometimes a necessary evil which can be hard to avoid (though other times it's easy to avoid), and so we justify in order not to lose faith or whatever. "Well, killing people in war is okay because we have to fight/support/etc etc."

Many religious folks could not go about their everyday lives knowing they had done something so wrong as murder, fearing the eternal flames of hell or whatever eternity their religion of choice (or lack of) holds for them, and so you search for snips from some ancient book written by man (that's the key thing there, written by people with similar conflicts, looking for similar answers) in order to put yourself at peace; to live your life and wash your hands of an some deed you would have never done in most other circumstances.

In the end it's all useless anyway. War is fought by the majority for a minority, with the majority often being told some lie or stretched truth in order to help them fight better. What separates an iraqi soldier from an american now? Or a british soldier in 1942 from a german one? Outside of alligence, very little.

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I think what we're all trying to get at is that killing is never right.

I think "religion" gets a bad name because people seem to assume that forgiveness is the same as justification. It's not supposed to be. I can only speak from the Christian perspective, as it's how I was brought up and it's the only religion I know enough about to talk, but supposedly God forgives sin so that people don't have to burn in hell, lets them "come home" so to speak and try to "repent," which doesn't really mean make up for it, offset it with rituals (Hail Marys count as rituals, a dumb one at that IMO), or trying to be a really really really good and cool and giving and charitable person or anything. It just means trying not to do it again. And supposedly the range of forgiveness is infinite... which, of course, people try to exploit in order to keep on offending because they enjoy the habit and don't really wanna give it up.

I could also touch on how nuns seem to believe that self-denial is the same as self-improvement/discipline, because it's kinda related, but I guess pretty off-topic.

Anyway, killing is never right, but all is forgivable, I suppose.

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I don't adapt to a belief that's been built upon texts that, through the millenia, have been interpreted in so many different ways, that the end result often speaks against itself and opposes common sense.
I do recognize in these texts the universal truth which exists in all religions, and believe in that instead of vague comments.

It's exactly the same with the law and all that. No doubt you've seen all the strange cases that go against every common sense you can have... for instance when a girl is cuffed and arrested for 'stealing' a teddy bear from her brother or something (don't know the exact incident) because it was stated in the law.

IMO, it's better to know what's right than to 'read' what's right... right? Text just can't fully express thought.

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Perhaps i'm going off topic by mentioning this but muder is wrong overall, not just in the religious or moral sense, but also in the very nature and science of it too. It is very rare and unbeneficial for an animal to murder another of it's own kind, at least not in the same manner as humans. I'm sure it's more complex than i think in our case because we're humans and we want more than just nutrition, air and sex.

Coming back to the issue, whether it's religion or normal life, again murder is wrong and if one was to repent for such a sin i'm sure it involves more than just saying sorry.

About the idea of religion being the thing that starts war i disagree. I'd say that it's more so to do with the selfishness \wickness of evil people

Ct_red_pants said:

Oh sure, there are clerics saying “if you blow yourself to bits on a bus full of Jews then you will go to haven” but the Koran says nothing to that effect, they really are just desperate crazy fucks who want to kill a bunch of people, and hey, if you can be prised for it, even better!


And things like this proves me right. When, say the Al-Queda, tempt their goons into being suicide bombers they tell them something like "Blow yourself up to kill some people in the blast and you can shag a 1000 virgins in the afterlife.". What does tell you about the guy who says this but is too chicken (or treacherous) to do it himself? What does this tell you about their sense of morality? What does tell you about their real motives? It tells you that their bad people that are just in it for themselves.

To be honest, this isn't my most favourite of subjects, perhaps not the one i'm best at. So i'll say no more.

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