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Hellbent

Serious CTF

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I recently discovered the fun of CTF. However, it could be more fun than it currently is. People coming and going - people being noobs etc. If we got a league going, that could be cool. Same set of people on a team - having positions on the field (middle section, defense, offense)- and having strategies.

CTF still needs some improvement. I dunno who made the zvox.wad and zdctfmp.wad, but those are really nice CTF wads. But CTF really needs private chat. And the experience you get in CTF is determined the same way it is in normal DM in skulltag. It is just alotted by how many frags, not how many flags you cause to be dropped or return or goals you score.

It needs the ladder system. Experience should be kept from level to level, accumalitve - not reset after each game (I realize these things are a Skulltag issue). Headsets would be really nice for live chatting between players. I just experienced this on PS2 in So-com 2 last night.

Also, in real Capture The Flag, there is a jail you go to when you get caught. And you need to be freed from that jail by having someone go to the jail and unfree you. There is an easy way to implement this in CTF. Have all the DM respawn spots be in a room with a door that can only be opened from the other side. So when you get killed, you go to jail and have to be freed. As is, there isn't really any consequence to dying. Except that you have to hunt down a weapon, which usually doesn't take long, especially if you are familiar with the maps.

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I'm assuming you're talking about ZDaemon CTF....

Private chat is

bind y messagemode2
Team say (for message binds) is
bind (whatever) "team_say (whatever)
And I am really glad you are liking CTF. Myself and all the people who submitted maps put a lot of work into the maps. Also, Kilgore and Raider as well as duke4ever (who is MIA, where are ya duke?) have done some serious coding (and bugfixing, heh heh), to make CTF the best it can be.

Experience will be handled as soon as we decide on a concrete individual scoring system.

And this CTF was made to emulate the CTF that came from Quake and the like, minus the runes and stuff. Jailbreak might be a possibility for future releases, but don't expect it anytime soon. (sorry :( )

Check the ZDaemon forums for details about a CTF tournament that is going on. The sign up date may have already passed, but it doesn't matter, we're bound to have another one.

Thanks again for your feedback.

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Oh! Now I get what that guy was talking about on the Zdaemon forums about Jailbreak.

You are correct, classic CTF does have a jail, and it would be somewhat interesting if one was implemented in Zdaemon. It would really encourage players to be wise about just jumping into combat.

Problem is, how would you implement this in the older ctf maps?

My suggestion would be to use like a yellow fountain or something as a "jail teleport destination" (once you die) and for maps not having a yellow fountain, it would totally ignore the jail concept.
Of course you have to work out things like stripping the player of all weapons once he dies, and also protecting him until someon releases him.

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Yea... it's not much of a consequence when you die. In fact, I killed a guy, was all happy I had one less adversary to deal with on my way to returning my enemy's flag to my flag, only to be shot at him again immediately after killing him, because he respawned near where I killed him and so I had to battle the same guy twice, and since my health had been deteriorated so much from just fighting him, he was able to kill me being happily back at 100.

Possible scoring/experience points: Capturing enemy's flag, 2 points, scoring a point with said flag, 3 experience points. Returning a comrade's dropped flag, 2 points. Killing an enemy flag holder, 3 points. Killing a non-flag holder, 1 point. Being killed when not having flag, -0 points (no penalty). Being killed with flag, -1 point. Picking up adversary's dropped flag before enemy returns it, priceless... I mean, 2 points. Going on to score with that flag, 2 points.

Or..

Capturing opponents flag, 4 points, scoring a point with said flag, 6 points. Returning your comrade's dropped flag, 3 points. Killing an enemy flag holder, 7 points. Killing a non-flag holder, 1 point. Being killed when not having flag, -0 points. Being killed with flag, -3 points. Picking up adversary's dropped flag before enemy returns it, 4 points. Going on to score with that flag, 5 points.

When jail gets implemented, you'd lose 1 experience point (on the 5 point system and 2 on the 10 point system) when not holding flag and getting killed (sent to jail) 10 point system prolly better.

If you are a flag holder, perhaps you get more points for kills, flags returned, and flag holders killed, since you're under more pressure and in position of importance. :)

I think the point system I offered prolly needs revising. I'd be interested in any that have been put together so far.


As for implementing jailbreak, I don't think it would be that hard. You have a room on red's side that has all the dm starts in it, and the same thing on blue's side. When you join the game, you thus start in jail, so if you join late, you have to be freed by a teammate. At the very beginning of the game, the door starts open, and so there are "Walk Over Close door" line defs triggers nearby that close it, so that you aren't stuck in jail at the beginning of the game and can't play.

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Hellbent said:

Possible scoring/experience points: Capturing enemy's flag, 2 points, scoring a point with said flag, 3 experience points. Returning a comrade's dropped flag, 2 points. Killing an enemy flag holder, 3 points. Killing a non-flag holder, 1 point. Being killed when not having flag, -0 points (no penalty). Being killed with flag, -1 point. Picking up adversary's dropped flag before enemy returns it, priceless... I mean, 2 points.


Thanks a lot. I now have to clean up a mouthful of soda pop from my keyboard and monitor... ;)

Hellbent said:

When you join the game, you thus start in jail, so if you join late, you have to be freed by a teammate. At the very beginning of the game, the door starts open, and so there are "Walk Over Close door" line defs triggers nearby that close it, so that you aren't stuck in jail at the beginning of the game and can't play.


This is a bad idea. Not only will it slow the game down quite a bit, but it will piss people off too.
Two different fountains/markers should be used to denote where to teleport to after dying. If these fountains/markers are not present, then the engine should interpret the map as not having a jail. This would make Zdaemon compatible with older maps. Only newer maps would be able to to take advantage of the jail system.

I like your point system btw. :)

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Hellbent said:

Also, in real Capture The Flag, there is a jail you go to when you get caught. And you need to be freed from that jail by having someone go to the jail and unfree you.


That would suck, can we not do that please? heh. That would be quite undoom-like, doom being so fast and good and all.

--BahdKo

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How about the implimentation of a "respawn timer" that keeps you from respawning for a set amount of time, definable by the server? Seems to make more sense than redesigining all our maps to fit a jail that would totally change the way the game plays.

Until then, you better be quick on your feet, get the flag and get the hell out while you can.

By the way, it's with this in mind why I do not use supershotgun starts in CTF. Because that makes you deadly as soon as you respawn. At least with a shotgun start, you can do SOMETHING, but at the same time need to search out a better weapon.

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EarthQuake said:

Thanks a lot. I now have to clean up a mouthful of soda pop from my keyboard and monitor... ;)

sorry :-p

This is a bad idea. Not only will it slow the game down quite a bit, but it will piss people off too.
Two different fountains/markers should be used to denote where to teleport to after dying. If these fountains/markers are not present, then the engine should interpret the map as not having a jail. This would make Zdaemon compatible with older maps. Only newer maps would be able to to take advantage of the jail system.

I like your point system btw. :)


Thanks. Cool, I didn't realize that was possible for jails. Much better idea. Although what exactly are 'fountains'? Oh... those fountain like things that come up from the ground.. bubbles or what not where the dm starts are. But shouldn't those still be in a jail room? Open only by a switch outside the jail?

AlexMax said:

How about the implimentation of a "respawn timer" that keeps you from respawning for a set amount of time, definable by the server? Seems to make more sense than redesigining all our maps to fit a jail that would totally change the way the game plays.

[/B]

Yea, I was thinking about this. Could be a bit annoying, though, just sitting there dead... waiting.... That's why I like the jail idea. Cause at least your somewhere, and you're trying to get out... and you don't know how long you'll be there. And it forces you to communicate to your teammates to let them know that you and your buddies need some help! Although what would happen if everyone went to jail? Let's say it's a 5 on 5 game... and blue shoots all 5 red team members. What then? Hmm... maybe you'd only be in jail for like 30 seconds. But your teammates could still free you sooner, by hitting a switch nearby the jail that would open the jail door. But the fun thing about having a jail is that there is real consequence for dying. It makes the stakes higher, makes you really fight hard to stay alive - and makes every tatctical decision you make that much more risky. Right now I just run balls out and hope no one shoots me while I try to score, and it usually works, and if it doesn't? So what... I just try again, hardly penalized. But in this situation, everyone would be forced to really be careful and be more creative and strategic. You wouldn't have to edit the maps that much. Make a jail template and copy that jail into all the maps. The jail would be close to the flag, off on the side somewhere, slightly towards the middle of the map (but slightly closer to the flag than the center of the map) Yes, we'd have to find a way to balance the game so that it doesn't become more advantageous for the players to aim at just sending as many people to jail vs. going for flags. Although it would be both - you'd have your ace shooters sending people to jail, and then your nimble runners getting the flag. I think it would make the game more interesting - add another element.

BahdKo said:

That would suck, can we not do that please? heh. That would be quite undoom-like, doom being so fast and good and all.

--BahdKo

For me, CTF isn't about it being Doom-like. The speed at which you run will always make Doom CTF doomish tho, even if you're spending up to 30 seconds in jail (or however long it is deemed a good amount of time, maybe variable depending on how big the map is). I think if done right, if the jail is implemented properly, it could really heat things up.

Until then, you better be quick on your feet, get the flag and get the hell out while you can.

By the way, it's with this in mind why I do not use supershotgun starts in CTF. Because that makes you deadly as soon as you respawn. At least with a shotgun start, you can do SOMETHING, but at the same time need to search out a better weapon.

Yes, I realized this, and it is the best way for the time being.

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BahdKo said:

That would suck, can we not do that please? heh. That would be quite undoom-like, doom being so fast and good and all.

--BahdKo


...

first point, you don't have to have a jail for every level, only if you want it there. The engine should decide whether or not to enable the jailmode if it detects one of these markers/fountains.

second point, this applies to ctf, not anything else. If you think that this is not "doomlike", then don't play ctf at all, because ctf is in no way like doom.

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CTF is played best in DOoM imo, I also play DTag.
I played CTf in Quake2, QUake3, etc. did that, but the speed is what makes this type of CTF the best, why slow it down? it's PERFECTLY fine the way it is... there is no problem with respawning so fast, just kill them again, this is what makes the game interesting.
The jail idea is kinda cool, but overall, nothing really needs to be changed about the CTF engine that is here now, it's fast, it's great, the maps all pretty much rule.

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I made a CTF map, but I don't know how to make it CTF. How do I put in the flags? I have 4 blue dm starts and 4 red ones. But that's the only thing that's making the map CTF. I mirrored map01 :).

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AlexMax said:

I'm assuming you're talking about ZDaemon CTF....


He actually said Skulltag like 3 or 4 times in his post. Let us all not forget that CTF has been in skulltag for a long time.

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Mancubus II said:

He actually said Skulltag like 3 or 4 times in his post. Let us all not forget that CTF has been in skulltag for a long time.

The first time I experienced CTF was in Skulltag.

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