"Crap" games that you actually liked

[-Jk-]

heh, I never knew anything about that ball thingy and that it had to be in the right place until I watched qdq 2 weeks later or something. The ball just was in the right place the first time I walked through that teleporter...

[Ichor]

I haven't seen any maps which use the moving teleporter (called TeleportTrain, I think). It could give the maps a certain randomness to them and make teleporters more interesting, especially if you can't see the moving spiked ball. In fact, if this is possible in Doom (as opposed to just using Teleport(random(a, b);), it could open up quite a few possibilities.

[Grazza]

Ichor said:

I don't remember any way in Doom 2 where you can accidently win the game like that.

Well, if the conjectured pacifist method* for map30 is actually feasible, then presumably that could happen by accident. "Unlikely", of course.

* i.e. your corpse blasted by archies into the room with Romero's head, and 17 revenant missiles follow you in there.

[Ichor]

That's assuming that the Revenant rockets are small enough to fit in that hole. If they are and if that ever happened to me, I'll buy a lottery ticket.

[Fredrik]

Eh... there's a much easier method; change the definition of "pacifist" to allow hurting things stuck on sticks.

[Grazza]

That still wouldn't enable you to do it "accidentally" though.

[Fredrik]

Why not? For example, you could be attempting to rocket jump off the raising pillar to reach the revenant platform while you all of a sudden slip you with your hand and spin the player 180 degrees...

[Grazza]

Haha, and do it three times. Yeah, I guess... Somehow reminds me of the guy who committed suicide by hammering three nails into his head.

[Ichor]

You could try to rocketjump from the pillar to the switch (it's much too far anyway) and miss hitting the pillar with the rocket.

[Mordeth]

Ichor said:
I haven't seen any maps which use the moving teleporter (called TeleportTrain, I think). It could give the maps a certain randomness to them and make teleporters more interesting, especially if you can't see the moving spiked ball. In fact, if this is possible in Doom (as opposed to just using Teleport(random(a, b);), it could open up quite a few possibilities.

A bit off-topic, but you can move teleports around in Boom (or a compatible port). I described this method on the ZDoom forum a while ago, because ZDoom broke compatability in that area.

Basically, you need to alter the Teleport Destination Thing (TDT) with a Dehacked patch (or in my case: a custom EDF). Instead of being totally inert, you make the TDT non-solid and give it an "initial" frame (with cyan graphics). This allows the TDT to be transported on a conveyor. From there you can either dump it in a tagged sector, or use a line-to-line teleport to get it there. Remember, you can tag several different sectors with the same teleport tag, but only the one which contains a TDT works correctly.

This allows you to randomise the teleport destination in-game, or to "switch on" teleporters.

[Ichor]

I'm actually more interested in having projectiles shooting from moving mapspots. I know it's possible to launch projectiles from monsters, but I'd rather have it as part of a script (i.e. having a mapspot shooting fireballs at the point it's rotating around). I also know that polyobject start spots don't count as mapspots (well, in Hexen anyway. I don't know about ZDoom), so they can't be used (I may try to change this, but it's not real high on my priority list right now).

Oh, and to steer it back to at least a visible view of the original topic, I few stinkers that I liked were Strider for the NES (not at first though), Air Fortress, and Atari's Pac-Man (despite the hideous, eardrum-melting music)

[Mordeth]

I have not tried this with mapspots, but I don't see how that would be different from altering a TDT. Both act as placeholders, and altering them in the way I just described does not interfere with their normal function.

[Ichor]

Hmm... It's certainly worth a try. I could also try using the D'Sparil teleport exit. Still, if I can get projectiles to fire from polyobject spots, I may be able to create simple, invisible polyobjects, and just use ACS to control their movement.

[Xaser]

Okay then, back on topic.

I remember an old game called Radix: Beyond the Void, where you were in some type of airplane-type thing and had to navigate through bases while blowing up robots and other airplane things and stuff. Basically, it's sort of like Descent only with not as good graphics. The music in that game was quite good, though, and I thought it was fun as hell. I still have the shareware copy on my old computer. Maybe I should play it again some time...

[Dron]

JamesEightBitStar said:
If it can be called an "Evolution" I mean sure it had a new game engine, but Quake (the first one anyway) itself was so half-assed that it makes the Hell Knight look like a stroke of genious.

How was Quake half assed huh? Where did they steal the enemies like the Schambler, fiend, Chthon, Grunts, etc from? Don't know? Then shut up

I mean come ON! "Shotgun, Super Shotgun. Nailgun, Super Nailgun. Grenade Launcher, Rocket Launcher." Yea, they really busted their brains for weapons. Uh-huh.

The Nail Gun isn't original? No game before had one IIRC. The shotgun, super shotgun are good weapons. Or do you think that in every new game there should be all new weapons that were never used in any game before?

[Ichor]

Dron said:

You have to telefrag Shub-Niggurath you teleport where the spiked ball is when it gets inside him you teleport.

JamesEightBitStar said:

...have him get defeated by making the entire thing hinge on wether or not you stepped into a teleporter at the right time?

I do believe that is what he meant, and enough with the insults please.

[Dron]

Ichor said:

I do believe that is what he meant, and enough with the insults please.

Oh I thought he meant that you have to teleport and the game engine randomly decides if you defeated him.

[Ichor]

Now that would make it a lousy, and very frustrating, boss. I'm sure glad that id didn't do that.

[Dron]

Shub would be better if he could actually attack you like the Half-life bosses

[JamesEightBitStar]

Dron said:
How was Quake half assed huh? Where did they steal the enemies like the Schambler, fiend, Chthon, Grunts, etc from? Don't know? Then shut up

Do you routinely show all the maturity of a five-year-old or is this something reserved specially for me? Anyway, I never said they "stole" the monsters, so quit putting words in my mouth.

The Nail Gun isn't original? No game before had one IIRC.

The nailgun is just the chaingun with a new look.

The shotgun, super shotgun are good weapons. Or do you think that in every new game there should be all new weapons that were never used in any game before?

Oh, I don't mind the weapons being holdovers from previous games. I DO mind that at least three of the seven weapons are just repeats of other weapons. I mean come on--The Super Shotgun is just a more powerful shotgun, the Super Nailgun is a slightly faster Nailgun, and the Rocket Launcher is just the grenade launcher that fires in a straight path. This isn't good design--this is just lazy.

And that's not the only thing lazy about Quake either. The levels? Uninspired, drab, and boring. The enemies seem like they were just thought up at random (one minute you're facing Ogres with chainsaws who throw rockets, the next minute you're facing medieval knights). And I've already commented on the final boss. I remember the first episode's boss being sort of so-so, as well.

-------------

Okay, now to get back to this thread's topic, I've found another "Crap game I actually like." Pac-Man 2: The New Adventures for the SNES. Sort of the "Zelda II" of the Pac-Man series, you could say--it tried something different that didn't catch on. But I found it insanely fun anyway.

[Dron]

JamesEightBitStar said:Do you routinely show all the maturity of a five-year-old or is this something reserved specially for me? Anyway, I never said they "stole" the monsters, so quit putting words in my mouth.

You said Quake is half-assed. So im guessing you meant the monsters to so shut the hell up

The nailgun is just the chaingun with a new look.

That's what you think. That chaingun shoots bullets. The nailgun shoots nails/small projectiles that quickly fly at enemies.

Oh, I don't mind the weapons being holdovers from previous games. I DO mind that at least three of the seven weapons are just repeats of other weapons. I mean come on--The Super Shotgun is just a more powerful shotgun, the Super Nailgun is a slightly faster Nailgun, and the Rocket Launcher is just the grenade launcher that fires in a straight path. This isn't good design--this is just lazy.

I don't see anyone whining about doom's shotgun/super shotgun. And the super nailgun is a really good weapon for quickly killing the tougher enemies. You would know that if you played Quake instead of looking at screenies and guessing about it.

And that's not the only thing lazy about Quake either. The levels? Uninspired, drab, and boring. The enemies seem like they were just thought up at random (one minute you're facing Ogres with chainsaws who throw rockets, the next minute you're facing medieval knights). And I've already commented on the final boss. I remember the first episode's boss being sort of so-so, as well.

Boring? How is Quake boring? Quake has a good, scary, dark atmosphere. And the levels aren't bad either. Also the ogres throw grenades not rockets. Seriously if you're going to talk about a game you actually have to play it. Not guess like an idiot.

[jute]

Dron said:

How was Quake half assed huh? Where did they steal the enemies like the Schambler, fiend, Chthon, Grunts, etc from? Don't know? Then shut up

i'd hardly call the grunt an original enemy. and if you want to know where they 'stole' enemies from, there's a fair amount of h.p. lovecraft inspiration in there, most obviously with shub niggurath.

also, quake is verifiably at most half-assed. id ended up scaling down on their original design plans an insane amount to get the game released. it's probably more like quarter-assed.

[JamesEightBitStar]

Dron said:
You said Quake is half-assed. So im guessing you meant the monsters to so shut the hell up

So, you like a game and I didn't so somehow you're qualified to put words in my mouth? Wow, your reasoning abilities are even more half-assed than Quake itself.

That's what you think. That chaingun shoots bullets. The nailgun shoots nails/small projectiles that quickly fly at enemies.

Did someone turn off their brain before posting? Changing what a weapon looks like doesn't change what it is. The Nailgun works just like a chaingun. There's not even a SUBTLE variance. It's just a chaingun with a facelift, as I said originally.

I don't see anyone whining about doom's shotgun/super shotgun.

That's because the Super Shotgun in DOOM was a one-off thing. Furthermore, it's not treated like it's an all-new weapon--hell, it's even selected using the same damn key on the keyboard. It's not like DOOM only has four weapons but has two versions of most of them (which is the case with Quake), rather Doom has like eight or so weapons and only ONE of them has multiple versions.

And the super nailgun is a really good weapon for quickly killing the tougher enemies. You would know that if you played Quake instead of looking at screenies and guessing about it.

.... You're either really desperate for an arguement, or you're just trolling. For your information, I actually played through the entire first episode of the game, tried other episodes, and hell, even tried both the expansion packs (I got the game from a friend who didn't want it, so he gave his CDs to me). Now, if that's your idea of "Looking at screenies and guessing" then you've got some f---ed up ideas.

Boring? How is Quake boring? Quake has a good, scary, dark atmosphere.

... if you're scared of your grandmother's basement, maybe. To me Quake has all the atmosphere of, well, a dull run down castle that happens to have a few thugs in it that I can easily overpower.

And the levels aren't bad either. Also the ogres throw grenades not rockets. Seriously if you're going to talk about a game you actually have to play it. Not guess like an idiot.

Funny, because according to the GAME, they're rockets. Note that the ogres always drop ROCKETS when you kill them. When you go over to the backpacks they drop, it says you have gained ROCKETS. Not grenades. And I actually booted up the game itself to check this.

Sorry bub, but if you want to defend a game, you have to play it as well. You can't just read a few reviews on GameFAQs and immediately decide it's the best thing in the world.

You done making a fool of yourself or would you like another beating?

[Dron]

JamesEightBitStar said:So, you like a game and I didn't so somehow you're qualified to put words in my mouth? Wow, your reasoning abilities are even more half-assed than Quake itself.

Okay so I made a mistake and I admited that I was guessing.

Did someone turn off their brain before posting? Changing what a weapon looks like doesn't change what it is. The Nailgun works just like a chaingun. There's not even a SUBTLE variance. It's just a chaingun with a facelift, as I said originally.

The nailgun shoots little projectiles that quickly fly at enemies/walls. The chaingun shoots bullets that instantly hit something.

That's because the Super Shotgun in DOOM was a one-off thing. Furthermore, it's not treated like it's an all-new weapon--hell, it's even selected using the same damn key on the keyboard. It's not like DOOM only has four weapons but has two versions of most of them (which is the case with Quake), rather Doom has like eight or so weapons and only ONE of them has multiple versions.

If the first doom already had the supershotgun it would have its own slot. And if you're saying the super nailgun is a different version of the nailgun you might as well say doom's chaingun is a nothing but a faster version of doom's pistol.

.... You're either really desperate for an arguement, or you're just trolling. For your information, I actually played through the entire first episode of the game, tried other episodes, and hell, even tried both the expansion packs (I got the game from a friend who didn't want it, so he gave his CDs to me). Now, if that's your idea of "Looking at screenies and guessing" then you've got some f---ed up ideas.

How should I know? You sound like you're just one of those dumbass Quake bashers who don't even know what Quake is.

... if you're scared of your grandmother's basement, maybe. To me Quake has all the atmosphere of, well, a dull run down castle that happens to have a few thugs in it that I can easily overpower.

Like I said you sure don't sound like you've been playing the game. For your information Quake has an excellent atmosphere very similar to doom3's.

Funny, because according to the GAME, they're rockets. Note that the ogres always drop ROCKETS when you kill them. When you go over to the backpacks they drop, it says you have gained ROCKETS. Not grenades. And I actually booted up the game itself to check this.

Rockets can be used as grenades in Quake. And are you really stupid enough to think that if someone shoots a rocket it bounces on the floor and of walls? I hope not.

Sorry bub, but if you want to defend a game, you have to play it as well. You can't just read a few reviews on GameFAQs and immediately decide it's the best thing in the world.

I did play the game. In fact I play Quake all the time. You've only played the first episode, looked at the others a bit, and looked at the expansion packs, and judged it by that. I play it all the time and obviously I know more about Quake then you.

You done making a fool of yourself or would you like another beating?

More like are YOU done making a fool out of YOURSELF?

[JamesEightBitStar]

Dron said:
Okay so I made a mistake and I admited that I was guessing.

Here's a tip for you: Don't guess. It always bites you back in the long run.

The nailgun shoots little projectiles that quickly fly at enemies/walls. The chaingun shoots bullets that instantly hit something.

The difference is still negligable.

If the first doom already had the supershotgun it would have its own slot.

I'm not so sure about that, after all the chainsaw and punch shared a slot too. and THEY'RE not even the same thing!

And if you're saying the super nailgun is a different version of the nailgun you might as well say doom's chaingun is a nothing but a faster version of doom's pistol.

Okay, this is the dumbest thing I've read so far. Are you claiming that the nailgun and the super nailgun are about as similar as the pistol and the chaingun? I'm so sorry, but that's just not the case. The Nailgun and Super Nailgun are precisely the same, save for that the Super Nailgun has a slightly faster rate of fire. Whereas the DOOM Pistol and Chaingun are NOTHING alike, except that they use the same type of ammo.

How should I know? You sound like you're just one of those dumbass Quake bashers who don't even know what Quake is.

I'm not that shallow. I wouldn't even be talking about Quake if I didn't know what it was, and I certainly wouldn't be bashing it if I hadn't played it.

But by the same token, you sound like a vapid Quake fanboy who will defend it to the death, no matter how illogical or just plain made-up your arguements are (just like the nailgun thing above).

Like I said you sure don't sound like you've been playing the game. For your information Quake has an excellent atmosphere very similar to doom3's.

So, it's got all the atmosphere of a game that's still in it's beta testing stages? Gee, guess that WOULD explain why Quake feels like a half-done job.

Rockets can be used as grenades in Quake. And are you really stupid enough to think that if someone shoots a rocket it bounces on the floor and of walls? I hope not.

... Okay, so first you admit that they ARE rockets ("Rockets can be used as grenades in Quake"), but then you turn around and say they can't be. Make up your mind, please.

And I know that in real life rockets can not bounce off walls. However the fact is that Quake has only one form of explosive and the game itself calls 'em Rockets. Obviously, it's id that thinks rockets can be bounced off walls, not me.

I did play the game. In fact I play Quake all the time. You've only played the first episode, looked at the others a bit, and looked at the expansion packs, and judged it by that. I play it all the time and obviously I know more about Quake then you.

This sure explains how you come away thinking that the nailgun and super nailgun are totally unique weapons that have about as much in common with each other as a pistol and a chaingun. If I played Quake for as long as you have, I would probably have lost my grip on reality too.

More like are YOU done making a fool out of YOURSELF?

Let's see:
1. You've admitted that you were "guessing" that I hadn't really played Quake, based on nothing more than that I didn't like the game (because EVERYONE who plays Quake loves it, right?)

2. You tried to argue that the nailgun and chaingun are totally different weapons when they are not.

3. You tried to argue that the Ogres throw grenades, not rockets, even though the GAME ITSELF says otherwise (so now you're saying Quake ITSELF is wrong...).

Your arguements are nothing but easily defeated strawmen that are based entirely on in-accurate (or in many cases, totally made-up) information. My arguements, on the other hand, are based on an objective analysis of the gameplay and actual facts concerning it, and hell, I even bothered to load up the game to make sure I was right.

And you think I'm LOSING? Dear God, you seriously HAVE lost all grasp of reality! I'm crushing you underfoot, and you're just unable to see or admit it.

[Mordeth]

Can you take this little discussion to PM or something?

[Shaviro]

Yeah, either that or tone it down considerably.

[JamesEightBitStar]

Actually, I'm about to just plain call it quits with the Quake fanboy. The only reason I even responded in the first place was because he was putting words in my mouth and misrepresenting my arguements (and I do NOT like my statements to be twisted out of proportion). I've managed to get him to admit that practically everything he says is bull, so unless his next post contains something new or intelligent, I'm probably not going to bother with him any further.

What I would REALLY like to do is get back on the topic of "Crap games I actually liked." To further this end, I'll name a few:

Because this one got lost in the above kerfluffle, Pac-Man 2: The New Adventures. Pac-Man breaks out of his maze-running tradition and instead stars in a rather unique blend of point-n-click adventure. This was for SNES and Genesis but unfortunately wasn't too popular... which sucks because there's a lot of elements here I would've loved to see make a return appearance (such as the Ghost Witch, the leader of those ghosts who are always hunting Pac).

Also... MYST and Riven. I feel kinda hypocritical naming these two. Most of the reason I think "All new games suck" s because the ones I hate (which IS quite a few of them, to be honest, though definitely not "All" of them) tend to be more cinematic, to the detriment of gameplay. Yet oddly I somehow enjoy these two games. It's either because of the Logic puzzles or because of the exploration element.

Oh, and Amber: Journeys Beyond, though I was kind of disappointed when it stopped trying to be a horror-type game and started being some silly drama about past lives.