Miscellaneous demos (part 1) [please post in part 3 instead]

Grazza said:
...apologies to vdgg for the awfulness of the demo I sent...

Oh, come on. Many thanks for the demo and leaving just a bit of detective work for me. And could I figure it out all by myself? The answer is "no". :)

I'd guess that cyber-while-invisible on map04 must have ruined a few runs.

Actually the odds of surviving are high, about 70%. At first I had a heart attack every time I was on the lift. Then I learned the cyber is usually away when the lift rises - this is the only luck-dependant moment. Before this movie I wasn't even scratched 5 times in a row. As for the battle which follows, the invisibility doesn't last long with my strategy and I got killed only once, I think.

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Equinox.wad MAP13 UV SPEED in 5:51

eq13-551.zip

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Awesome!

If something surprised be in particular, it was the "easiness" of the pain elemental room in your demo. And why the hell I thought you must take the rocket launcher near the start? Fantastic demo!

Edit: Let me quote one /idgames reviewer: "I prefer to say that it's a 12 maps pwad... with an extra map for aliens!!!"

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Equinox.wad MAP13 UV SPEED in 5:07

eq13-507.zip

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Should I say "holy shit" or wait for another route improvement?

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vdgg said:

If something surprised be in particular, it was the "easiness" of the pain elemental room in your demo.

Well, some of the MBF enhanced monster AI (specifically "rescue dying friends") was enabled in this demo (it is a "current Prboom-plus" demo). I don't know how major an impact it would have in that respect.

Output from MBFLMPC:
Monster infighting: 1
Dogs: 0
Classic BFG: 0
Beta emulation: 0
Distfriend: 0080
Monster backing: 0
Monster avoid hazards: 0
Monster friction: 1
Help friends: 1
Dog jumping: 1
Monkeys: 0

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Great job Creaphis! I like how fast you grab the SSG.

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Grazza said:

Monkeys: 0

what? I need to look that up ...

E: steep stair climbing. Now that makes sense.

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Made some demos of the bonus maps(e1m9, e2m9, & e3m9) of Death Tormention 2.

E1M9 UVmax 1:42
E1M9 UVspeed 0:25
E2M9 UVmax 0:19
E3M9 UVmax 0:26
E3M9 Pacifist 0:16
Exe: prboom-plus 2.5.0.6

dt2demos.zip

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vdgg said:

Should I say "holy shit" or wait for another route improvement?


You may cuss at will. I don't think this map is going to cough up any more shortcuts.

Grazza said:

Well, some of the MBF enhanced monster AI (specifically "rescue dying friends") was enabled in this demo (it is a "current Prboom-plus" demo). I don't know how major an impact it would have in that respect.


I haven't noticed any unusual or advantageous monster behaviour with these settings. This pain elemental room would almost definitely play the same on any complevel. I think it's reasonable to simply use default settings when recording on this wad - it's not specifically a vanilla or Boom wad, but just needs a generic limit-removing port. The wad's textfile actually recommends ZDoom but we all know what a barrel of worms ZDoom demo recording is, so recording with "current PrBoom-plus" seems like a fair compromise.

K!r4 said:

Great job Creaphis! I like how fast you grab the SSG.


Thanks! Since that SSG-grab is right at the beginning of the run, I had a lot of practice... trust me...


Okay, apparently MAP13 wasn't a big enough dose of Equinox for me so I recorded a few more equinox.wad UV SPEEDs. In the zip, we have:

MAP01 in 0:58 -4 seconds from previous record
MAP03 in 1:39 Table-filler
MAP04 in 4:45 -6 minutes, 31 seconds from previous record

equinox_uvspeedpack_creaphis.zip

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With the recent Equinox activity, I decided to tackle a real pain the ass level due to the very tight ammo it has and the lovely trap at the end of the level.

It's a UV-Max for map 10 with a time of 12:52. Could go around 30 seconds or more faster, but I'll take any kind of exit I can scrounge up here.

eq101252.zip

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Hey Anima, you didn't mention in your TXT you'd be punching an arch-vile non-berserk ;)

I practiced this map - I didn't go for max or speed, just wanted to become familiar with it. It is nasty. Just like cc25, it is difficult *just* to exit, getting a Max is mega-difficult and requires insane ammo management self-discipline. To be honest, I knew it was possible to do it theoretically (UV Max), but I wasn't too sure about a non-TAS max possibility here. Oh, and in my practice runs I didn't finish this map at all - I kept dying right after getting the BFG.

The most impressive moment for me was that run for a RL in front of 4 viles. As for the AV in the pit with cells, if you were very low on health you could have moved forward a little, lowered that lift, run backwards and waited until the AV stands on the platform and goes up. This method would have been slower however, so accepting taking damage seems right.

An outstanding achievement without any doubt.

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I saw a little bit of vdgg's movie demo and tried out this wad.
These are the results...

Note that I have a new laptop and it didn't include a USB mouse so I am not as good as I used to be because I am adjusting to the new all keyboard configuration. I will continue to use all keyboard until I get a job and eventually get a USB mouse...then the real fun begins

Much respect to vdgg, revved, ryback, gggmork, and all the other keyboarders out there...Its harder than it looks when watching the demo.

Also thank you vdgg for unintentionally getting me into this wad a little...Ammo is too tight for me so there's only a few levels that I enjoy.

equinoxtm.zip

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TendaMonsta said in equinoxtm.txt:
I had 6 seconds on one demo but I didn't let the stats finish...itchy trigger finger (I played the demo back with the HUD just to see what I got and I never got that time ever again.

It's still a valid demo - don't throw it away just because of that.

vdgg said:

Just like cc25, it is difficult *just* to exit, getting a Max is mega-difficult and requires insane ammo management self-discipline. To be honest, I knew it was possible to do it theoretically (UV Max), but I wasn't too sure about a non-TAS max possibility here.

I think the big problem is that on UV, the archies move around so much that you tend to end up wasting ammo. I think this may be a map where UV -fast (Max) is easier than regular UV Max, because with -fast, the archies just attack you, and that means they're standing still, and you can make sure much more of your plasma hits its target.

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vdgg said:

Hey Anima, you didn't mention in your TXT you'd be punching an arch-vile non-berserk ;)

Well I can't remember everything I did too easily, heh. Would have been so nice to have a berserk pack on this level. Then the ammo trouble wouldn't be quite as bad.

Grazza said:

I think the big problem is that on UV, the archies move around so much that you tend to end up wasting ammo. I think this may be a map where UV -fast (Max) is easier than regular UV Max, because with -fast, the archies just attack you, and that means they're standing still, and you can make sure much more of your plasma hits its target.

That is true. I'd probably have a UV-fast here by now if it wasn't for that nasty final battle screwing me over with luck twice in a row.

On the plus side, I did a UV-Max for equinox map 4 in 11:08. Pretty fun level and not a whole ton of BS that could potentially screw you over.

eq041108.zip

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Finally, Equinox map 10 UV-fast recorded. Time for the run is 9:52. Gotta feel lucky that I didn't need to use my pistol once during this level.

On the downside, I got owned by a door closing behind me again and getting smacked by two archies as a result.

On the bright side, I survived the final room.

Pretty nice time too. Maybe 5-10 seconds quicker perhaps?

eq10f952.zip

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Anima Zero said:

I did a UV-Max for equinox map 4 in 11:08.


I was keeping track of the comments I would make while I watched this. Here they are!

I think you make the right choice in just making a mad dash for the doorway at the beginning of the level. My thinking was that I'd have a better chance of survival if I spent a little bit more time mowing down hitscan enemies while on the way there, and that may be true, but I guess "chance of survival" doesn't really matter for something that's right at the beginning of a demo. Choosing the riskier but faster method is a good idea.

In the room with the 5 switches, only the first, second, third and fifth need to be pressed for a max run. If your only goal is to beat the level, only the fifth needs to be pressed at all. The only function of the fourth switch is to block off access to the megasphere and rocket launcher, so you can safely press switches 1, 2, 3 and 5 on your first visit and avoid the return trip.

There's actually another chainsaw in this level, and you can get it extremely early. It's just next to the switch room, behind one of the "imp tanks."

I never even imagined that you could avoid waking up the cyberdemon. Your method is very smart. While recording my run I was internally ranting and raving about how B.P.R.D was a jerk for putting in a cyberdemon that would kill you, unavoidably, four times out of five. Meanwhile, there was a perfectly safe way to approach it that I didn't think of because I wasn't thinking laterally. This is a perfect example of what B.P.R.D maps are all about. If you measure his maps by the usual standards for Doom maps, their gameplay really isn't that great. But, if you suppress your biases about what Doom should be and appraise them by a wider standard, then they're brilliant, because of all the creative, non-Doomy tactics they require.

You could save some time at the very end by letting the Romero explosions take out some of the monsters on walkways for you.

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Creaphis said:

I think you make the right choice in just making a mad dash for the doorway at the beginning of the level. My thinking was that I'd have a better chance of survival if I spent a little bit more time mowing down hitscan enemies while on the way there, and that may be true, but I guess "chance of survival" doesn't really matter for something that's right at the beginning of a demo. Choosing the riskier but faster method is a good idea.

I was trying a few times to grab the SSG before making that run so I could kill stuff near the switch room a bit faster, but the chances of survival were abysmal as all hell attempting that so I dropped the idea after like 10 attempts at it.

Creaphis said:

In the room with the 5 switches, only the first, second, third and fifth need to be pressed for a max run. If your only goal is to beat the level, only the fifth needs to be pressed at all. The only function of the fourth switch is to block off access to the megasphere and rocket launcher, so you can safely press switches 1, 2, 3 and 5 on your first visit and avoid the return trip.

Heh, that does help. I remembered trying to test what combo of switches seems to block access to those items and avoid it...and doing that test all of one time, then saying screw it and planned for an extra trip there. At least I know now one thing that can be improved.

Creaphis said:

There's actually another chainsaw in this level, and you can get it extremely early. It's just next to the switch room, behind one of the "imp tanks."

Nice, but I'm not 100% sure where it could be applied to help out any. Ammo really isn't a huge problem here I think until I hit that chainsaw by the mancos. Even then, I don't need it that much save for a few moments.

Creaphis said:

I never even imagined that you could avoid waking up the cyberdemon. Your method is very smart. While recording my run I was internally ranting and raving about how B.P.R.D was a jerk for putting in a cyberdemon that would kill you, unavoidably, four times out of five. Meanwhile, there was a perfectly safe way to approach it that I didn't think of because I wasn't thinking laterally. This is a perfect example of what B.P.R.D maps are all about. If you measure his maps by the usual standards for Doom maps, their gameplay really isn't that great. But, if you suppress your biases about what Doom should be and appraise them by a wider standard, then they're brilliant, because of all the creative, non-Doomy tactics they require.

Just happened to be something I wanted to test during practice runs. Figured I might as well try and, well, finding it to work was pretty sweet. It is a little tight around where those arachs are though. Go out a little too far and the cybie wakes up. Even if I had woken it up though, I would have gone on and hoped luck was kind enough not to have that cybie plant a rocket in my face as I was coming up the elevator.

Creaphis said:

You could save some time at the very end by letting the Romero explosions take out some of the monsters on walkways for you.

Watching your speedrun, I noticed that not every enemy got blasted apart when the explosions came. That's why I elected to wiped out one side of enemies before hitting the final switch as I figured that'd give me enough time to wipe the rest out before the level ends.

I'll see if I can improve upon map 4 tomorrow morning, but for now, I did a UV-Speed for map 12 in 3:20, beating my old record by 32 seconds. Terrible luck with the first set of mancos aside, things went pretty well. Still another 5+ seconds to be shaved off if everything goes optimally.

eq12-320.zip

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Equinox Map 13 UV MAX
Is it possible? From scratch most people say no... But if you started the level with all the weapons from all the previous levels and recorded a youtube video of it... Would it be possible then?

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Into Sandy's City Map07 UVmax 1:05
exe: prboom-plus 2.5.0.6 (complevel 2)

It Might be possible to get under a minute but I keep getting 1:05 about 3 times in a row so this will do for now.

sndy07-105.zip

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Creaphis said:
I think it's reasonable to simply use default settings when recording on this wad - it's not specifically a vanilla or Boom wad, but just needs a generic limit-removing port. The wad's textfile actually recommends ZDoom but we all know what a barrel of worms ZDoom demo recording is, so recording with "current PrBoom-plus" seems like a fair compromise.

Using different compatibility settings changes many things. The MBF or PrBoom algorithms controlling thing behavior are different from vanilla's, for example, and some objects or actions are coded to behave differently. Guesstimating the effect of such differences is always inaccurate or vague. Equinox is fully limit-removing vanilla compatible (either PrBoom+ -complevel 2 or Doom2+) and already has a bunch of demos to show that, including vdgg's recent ones (that inspired attention on the WAD) and the rest posted above. The best places to confirm what behavior (demo version) to use for a demo are existing demos and the demo crowd, and not necessarily what it says on a WAD's text file.

Not telling you to rerecord or anything, just a tip for next time ;)

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EternalDoomer said:
Equinox Map 13 UV MAX
Is it possible? From scratch most people say no... But if you started the level with all the weapons from all the previous levels and recorded a youtube video of it... Would it be possible then?

Like many others I'm very cautious before I say something is "impossible". In this case, however, I'm absolutely certain it is.

The problem would be cyberdemons and spider masterminds. Even if you could afford a BFG plus 660 cells in MAP13 plus 600 cells at the start,
- you haven't enough ammo
- these monsters cannot be severely weakened fighting with the remaining monsters because of their fixed position
- it's unlikely you can fight against them with fists (their position again)
- you either jump onto every cyber platform risking instant death (this way you hope to spend 80 cells on each cyber) or fight them from a distance (you spend at least twice as much).

So no, impossible. Even MAP12 should be very challenging / at the edge of the impossible for a Max if played after MAP11 (e.g. not from pistol start). Not that I would complain if someone proved me wrong ;)

I have another question though. Is it possible to throw the final switch in MAP13 and stay alive?

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And after a morning recording session, Equinox map 4 UV-Max in 10:19, beating my previous record by 49 seconds. SSG was not being my friend in this run, but everything else went off without a hitch...almost. I also get to fight the cybie with the invis. sphere and manage to wake it up too early to boot (Was slightly too far off that wall it seems).

eq041019.zip

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vdgg said:

Like many others I'm very cautious before I say something is "impossible". In this case, however, I'm absolutely certain it is.

There's also the issue of the large area with the damaging floor and lots of demons and archies. You get one invul around there, but it's a lot of monsters to kill in a short time, especially if you want to do it without using ammo that you really need elsewhere. I did once suggest that you could use linedef-skipping to punch them from inside the teleporter, but that's a TAS-only idea, I suspect, even if it is feasible.

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myk said:

Using different compatibility settings changes many things. The MBF or PrBoom algorithms controlling thing behavior are different from vanilla's, for example, and some objects or actions are coded to behave differently. Guesstimating the effect of such differences is always inaccurate or vague.


Duly noted.

myk said:Equinox is fully limit-removing vanilla compatible (either PrBoom+ -complevel 2 or Doom2+) and already has a bunch of demos to show that, including vdgg's recent ones (that inspired attention on the WAD) and the rest posted above. The best places to confirm what behavior (demo version) to use for a demo are existing demos and the demo crowd, and not necessarily what it says on a WAD's text file.[/B]


There are more existing Equinox demos recorded in ZDoom, in Legacy, and even in PrBoom-plus -complevel 0 (Doom.exe v1.2 compatibility) than there are in -complevel 2, so there's clearly no well-established preference here (aside from yours). Furthermore, while fooling around with nuts3.wad I found that, even though all linedef actions are strictly vanilla, the map doesn't work 100% correctly in vanilla compatibility because of some obscure conflict between a certain linedef action and a certain sector height. I forget the details - this was a while ago - but I remember that the map was still completable despite this bug. I wouldn't be surprised if equinox.wad has more subtle, non-essential machinery in it that doesn't work at the vanilla level.

vdgg said, RE: a UV MAX of MAP13:

Like many others I'm very cautious before I say something is "impossible". In this case, however, I'm absolutely certain it is.


Definitely.

vdgg said, RE: a UV MAX of MAP13:
I have another question though. Is it possible to throw the final switch in MAP13 and stay alive?


Interestingly, it's possible to finish the level with positive health, but you'll still be dead! The final switch activates a crusher that drops down on several hidden rooms full of Romero heads and barrels. It just so happens that there's a voodoo doll in one of these rooms, so, even if you pick up the megasphere in the final room and take no damage from monsters or Romero explosions, you'll still crumple up and die when the voodoo doll unavoidably runs out of its 100 health. The only way you could truly survive this level is if you can make it to the end room quickly enough after picking up one of the level's three green marbles. I'll go play with this a bit and see if that's possible.

Grazza said:

There's also the issue of the large area with the damaging floor and lots of demons and archies. You get one invul around there, but it's a lot of monsters to kill in a short time, especially if you want to do it without using ammo that you really need elsewhere. I did once suggest that you could use linedef-skipping to punch them from inside the teleporter, but that's a TAS-only idea, I suspect, even if it is feasible.


While we're skipping linedefs, you could also skip the lines around the lift at the end of that lava hallway, preventing that lift from rising, thus giving yourself a bigger platform to fight on. There's still no way to funnel the demons down to that end of the hall, though; many will get caught up in its twists and turns. Also, there's no way to involve the archviles in infighting, so when your invulnerability runs out you'll be at their mercy, unless you can kill them all off before you even reach the end platform, which could be possible in a TAS run, I suppose. There is a berserk pack in this level, which helps.


Finally, nice improvements, Anima.

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I don't really like maps like equinox 04 where there's a 10 minute mostly linear route and secrets to memorize beforehand. You can't just pick up and play it. I'd try a max, but I don't want to memorize all that crap.
A lot of maps end up like that, probably because the author wants to make the map appear epic by being long with many detailed areas. But gameplay organized around something simplistic and intuitive tends to be more fun imo.

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Creaphis said:

I'll go play with this a bit and see if that's possible.


It's not.

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