Deus Vult is done

[Ubik]

I'm looking forward to seeing how it ended up turning out. But now what Converted DOOMer needs to do is use his textural and architectural skill to make a series of more reasonably-sized maps with REALLY tight gameplay and monster/ammo balancing.

I'll play it tonight and see whether I have the patience to legitimately beat it. :)

[Nick Perrin]

Converted DOOMer said:

Difficulty is not the same thing as bad gameplay in some people's book, mind you, and make sure you spell my project's name correctly, you 12-year old kid.

This kind of attitude isn't going to help you get better at mapping. You have a knack for it but everyone's just offering suggestions on what you didn't do well. It's true- your wad is difficult, but its also not fun.

You should make a map with less enemies, something easier and more fun. Like I said you have a definite skill.

[Sphagne]

OK, lets ignore the gameplay, but for the level structure, I dont think many people can do this in their last attempt let alone their first attempt, hey man, how did you do that? that looks great!

did you take those new textures from other games? and those grand hanging pictures in that great cathedral?

[Graf Zahl]

Converted DOOMer said:

Difficulty is not the same thing as bad gameplay in some people's book, mind you, and make sure you spell my project's name correctly, you 12-year old kid.

I have to agree that with this attitude you won't ever become a good mapper.

Interesting architecture isn't everything and if it is supported by (non-)gameplay that solely focuses on killing monsters, killing monsters, killing monsters, killing bigger monsters and finally killing all the monsters resurrected by the Arch-Viles you cannot kill because you are busy killing other monsters (I hope you get my point) it's worthless. There are not many who like this kind of map. I can accept it in small doses but in such a huge map it becomes an endless chore that isn't fun to play at all!


Your map isn't only difficult - I could live with that. What's much worse it ends up in monotonous tedium and that is something I don't bother with.

[chilvence]

I especially liked the crowdsurfing bit in the cathedral. That was inspired.

[The Ultimate DooMer]

Converted DOOMer said:

That's valid, but I disagree, it takes a large amount of intellect and tactical experience to effectively negotiate large, well organized fights.

Perfectly true, that's one of the things I really love about HR and AV - the tactical side of the insane battles.

Grabbed it but haven't played it yet. Will do so soon.

[Ubik]

I'm partway through level 2 of this - the enormous lava room - and I have to say that this map still has most of the weaknesses I saw in playtesting. The architecture is, for the most part, quite inspired, but the flow and monster placement just don't work very well. The first level is "go to room -> watch monsters spawn in -> kill monsters -> go to next room," and has no real sense of pacing and flow whatsoever. The huge lava chamber in level 2 is the best so far (and, if what I've seen before is any indication, will be the best part of it), as it's not overly linear and has good flow to it.

But, as said before, this map's biggest fault is its utter monotony: Except for a few choice bits here and there, it's nothing but "move to a room, kill lots of monsters," and in that respect doesn't have much variety. If Converted DOOMer can revise his mapping style so that he works more with medium/large levels with tight gameplay, he'll be a smash hit; but, while Deus Vult is an extremely impressive first map, the gameplay style needs a great deal of tinkering to play well.

[grutsch]

Very much respect for the work you have done; some things are incredibly beautiful (some pics in the cathedral, the mouth thing in level 4) but like some people said; its way too hard, and some areas are too big to be able to control them (unless you maybe spend a lot of time really to get to know the triggers). Well again; great great great! (disregarding some of the gameplay)

[Doom Marine]

Ubik: Congrats and thanks to you for attempting my maps, I'm pretty sure that map01 and 02 are the weakest maps of the set... keep going, you're almost to the Cathedral! That's where the AV29 spirit kicks in =) If you ever beat the whole set, tell me more on what should be done...

BTW, I am gathering resources for my next project: A megawad with the architecture of AV, the ferocious fights of HR, and the small-scale sensibility of Scythe [Less work for me, more fun for you]. In the meantime, play completely through DV and give me some feedback on it, thanks.

[Ubik]

Converted DOOMer said:

Ubik: Congrats and thanks to you for attempting my maps, I'm pretty sure that map01 and 02 are the weakest maps of the set... keep going, you're almost to the Cathedral! That's where the AV29 spirit kicks in =) If you ever beat the whole set, tell me more on what should be done...

I just finished map03, and while the cathedral is just as gorgeous as before, there's a bit of a gameplay problem in the "omega room": It's nearly impossible to beat, with the two Arch-Viles spawning on opposite ends of the circular hall and respawning Revenants along with all the new ones already popping up. There's no good cover and very little room to really maneuver Revenant rockets, so it's extremely difficult to manage properly. That's the biggest problem, although the gameplay is much better than map01 and at least on par with map02. I'll check up with you on map04 later tonight or tomorrow.

[Nick Perrin]

Converted DOOMer said:

BTW, I am gathering resources for my next project: A megawad with the architecture of AV, the ferocious fights of HR, and the small-scale sensibility of Scythe [Less work for me, more fun for you]. In the meantime, play completely through DV and give me some feedback on it, thanks.

Don't do more HR-inspired fights.... Unless you can make them organized, tactical, and make ways of killing enemies easier(ie a crusher overhead a large crowd of enemies). And I'm sure you can, so that sounds good, but don't overdo the fights!

[Doom Marine]

I don't think you understand, I like those fights that you hate ;)

EDIT: A good fight will only seem a good fight insofar as the player's ability to control the fight. Otherwise they're just senseless hordes of monsters

[myk]

Ubik said:
But now what Converted DOOMer needs to do is use his textural and architectural skill to make a series of more reasonably-sized maps with REALLY tight gameplay and monster/ammo balancing.

These maps don't have gameplay issues or (much less) bad monster/ammo balance. I don't see the point in telling an author that likes to do "doomgod" styled maps to use another mapping style; lots of authors are working on lighter wads already. I'm not overly a fan of maps that include hordes of monsters myself (maybe I'm a wimp), or even non-standard wads, but I didn't mind watching the PrBoom demos... the play was generally great and the maps were suitable for it.

[Vile]

myk said:

I'm not overly a fan of maps that include hordes of monsters myself (maybe I'm a wimp), or even non-standard wads, but I didn't mind watching the PrBoom demos... the play was generally great and the maps were suitable for it.

It's the same case with me, even though some of my recordings would suggest otherwise. I enjoy playing wads like the two HRs and Deus Vult, but more often, I end up preferring wads that play more traditionally. Recent wads like Rebirth and Vile Flesh scored big time in this aspect and I'm greatly appreciative of that.

Anyway Huy, I'm sorry that the majority (at least from what I saw) appears to dislike the kind of gameplay that Deus Vult delivers, but don't let that discourage you because you've shown talent in aesthetics, and I'd love to see how that develops in future wads. Perhaps trying a more atmospheric wad, or at least a wad with similar architecture but toned down monsters would be the way to go.

EDIT: er, BTW, I meant to ask this before, but where did the map04 midi come from? I recognized all the others so I was curious. :)

[Kojak_Man]

Argh...everytime a high-monster count wad (sometimes even ones acknowledged as good such as AV and HR2) comes out there's always the same old same old 'the gameplay sucks' retorted, regardless of the truth. First of all, Deus Vault CANNOT be beaten by gung-ho charging every battle(which is what I feel what most people who dislike this type of gameplay assume you do when presented with it.) You have to plan and make use of the terrain, powerups, ect. properly or you will be splattered very quickly. It takes strategy to figure out how to overcome the impossible odds. Although playing skill is definately needed, it won't help one bit if there is no strategy to back it up. Secondly, there is a difference between a challenging, high monster count level which is possible to beat, but requires strategy (I would consider DV this), and a stuff the monsters wherever there's space for them, load up the player, and give them no option but cut through to daylight ala the nuts series (all of which are probably impossible to beat, at least with most of today's computers)

Also, it would be nice if the levels could appeal to a broader range of players, but having only 3 skill setting makes this very difficult to do. I can accept that some people don't like DV's style of gameplay, but saying it sucks, especially without even having finished it is not a great way of doing things; there are definately a lot of people who enjoy this type of gameplay or megawads like HR2 would not be popular.

ConvertedDoomer, what does suck is the bad-mouthing your wad has gotten here. I for one enjoyed DV and would consider it a first-rate job for even an experienced mapper. Also, I don't see how anyone could say the architecture is anything less than stunning. It may not be revolutionary, but it is clean, detailed, and on par with some of the best I've seen. Sure I could get tired of DV's gameplay if that was all the community had to offer, but I would definately miss it if it were abandoned.

[Ubik]

myk said:

These maps don't have gameplay issues or (much less) bad monster/ammo balance.

Actually, I think the ammo balance is pretty well-done for the most part, although I seemed to run low on rockets near the end (that might have been intended for the Icon fight, though). What I have a problem with is the areas - most notably map01 - where it's simply a series of rooms full of monsters. Although it certainly improves from that point on.

I don't see the point in telling an author that likes to do "doomgod" styled maps to use another mapping style; lots of authors are working on lighter wads already. I'm not overly a fan of maps that include hordes of monsters myself (maybe I'm a wimp), or even non-standard wads, but I didn't mind watching the PrBoom demos... the play was generally great and the maps were suitable for it.

After finishing map04, I should clarify my position: Deus Vult is VERY well-constructed, and most of the gameplay is HR/AV difficulty done pretty well. It just bogs down in certain parts where it becomes a series of monster-filled rooms. The most annoying examples of these are the middle part of map01 and the "teleport hallways" of map02.

In the end, despite frequent frustration and occasional annoyance, I think Deus Vult is extremely good; but it could make the jump from great map to legendary if the flow were managed better. As it is, it's one of the best WADs to come out for a while.

Map04 is probably the best example of how DV succeeds on the strategic front: The initial winding "hallway" and the high Arch-Vile perches are quite challenging, and the other areas enable a wider variety of strategies (e.g. the first hallway in the building has an excellent choke point at its entrance, and there's shelter behind the cylindrical structure at the far end of the main chamber to enable HR2map32 infighting). Map02's massive central chamber is also a good example of this: having to snipe monsters on high perches while skulking through the winding tunnels, occasionally taking out one of the little nooks carved in the side of the level to get shelter and more powerups.

I wasn't trying to badmouth Converted DOOMer... far from it. I quite enjoyed most of Deus Vult, despite some of my harsh criticisms... that's just the way I tend to critically analyze things. But now that he's accomplished the ultimate in an epic map, I'd also like to see him create something challenging on a smaller scale, with a more traditional monstercount and map size but gameplay and balance that's as tight as or even tighter than Deus Vult. If Converted DOOMer can go on to create the next Scythe or HR or Memento Mori, I'd be fucking ecstatic; as it is, Deus Vult stands on its own as a strong work with a few flaws in its gameplay style, but overall presenting an excellent package.

I will say, though, that making more of a difference in the easier skill levels might have helped to give this WAD a bigger audience. If nothing else, people need to see the excellent architecture of this map.

[Darkhaven4]

Dron said:

This is like an extra map for Alien Vendetta that wasn't included because doom2 can only have 32 levels. Great gameplay, and breathtaking architecture.

The original Doom2.exe can have up to 99 maps total (can't be anymore because of the 2-numbers idclev limit). Of course, you would have to IDCLEV to map33. From there it goes like normal maps (map34-map35-map36, so on). I know exactly what I'm talking about, I'm doing it in Eternal Pain; EP got switched over to vanilla DOOM2 because of certain complications involving radius triggers and map definitions.

[myk]

The Final DOOM version of Doom2 will allow for up to 34 levels, but if you add more there will be issues... at the very least the music won't be found.

[Grazza]

Converted DOOMer said:

BTW, I am gathering resources for my next project: A megawad with the architecture of AV, the ferocious fights of HR, and the small-scale sensibility of Scythe [Less work for me, more fun for you]. In the meantime, play completely through DV and give me some feedback on it, thanks.

That sounds fantastic. I'd suggest avoiding *really* small maps though. Maybe more TVR! sized than Scythe E1 size?

Vile said:

It's the same case with me, even though some of my recordings would suggest otherwise.

I suspect you're not alone. Even with AV and HR, there are noticeably fewer compet-n demos on the bigger slaughter-style maps than on smaller more optimizable ones (e.g. compare AV05 with AV27, or HR25 with HR26).

Anyway Huy, I'm sorry that the majority (at least from what I saw) appears to dislike the kind of gameplay that Deus Vult delivers

That might be a false impression from this thread. The comments here present a different picture.

[Graf Zahl]

Grazza said:

The comments here present a different picture.

Which is not surprising. Most people who don't like this style of 'gameplay' won't even bother with this map and therefore not vote.

Anyway, I gave it zero stars. Maps like this really make me vomit.

[Sphagne]

Jealous?

[myk]

Graf Zahl said:
Most people who don't like this style of 'gameplay' won't even bother with this map and therefore not vote.

Right...

I have to give this 5 stars, because it falls NOTHING short of being legendary. This wad, despite it's gameplay flaws will be remembered for all time like the other great wads like Hell Revealed and Alien Vendetta. ***** -- EarthQuake

Ugh. I had a long review written up, but IDgames sucks... *eyeshift* Anyways. It's good. Your map1 needs work, all the other architecture is good. Monster placement doesn't seem organic. Could stand more corridors, less open spaces. But very good. -Shaikoten

This is far too difficult for me, so I only watched the demos - but I can see, why hardcore doomers praise it. Looks fucking monumental and insane. Left me breathless 5/5 -- Brun Ohn

And you can add the input given on this thread and the /newstuff one (including mine.) Plus, like, any map that isn't totally "standard" in functionality will naturally not have everyone playing it. Not even standard maps do, of course.

[Graf Zahl]

Ok, I apparently forgot to add 'normally' to my statement. Of course there are exceptions. ;-)

[Grazza]

Graf Zahl said:

Which is not surprising. Most people who don't like this style of 'gameplay' won't even bother with this map

The list of most frequent posters in this thread suggests otherwise.

[Nick Perrin]

Sorry, CD, I didn't mean I hated those fights. To be clearer- I like fights with lots of monsters when they're better organized. So basically all you have to touch up on is the organization of enemies and less large open-space battles(so it's not monotonous). The rest of your mapping is great.

[Mivalekan]

My game lagged like crazy on map05. :(

[Doom Marine]

Ubik: Thanks for the fair reviews buddy; there are definitely aspects of DV that I will have to drop for DV II (it's a megawad). You will never, ever, ever see anything similar to Map01's layout again... =)

[DaniJ]

I just wanted to come back and say I've now made it (nearly) to the end of map03 and I'm enjoying this much more now. When I gave my previous comments I'd only made it half way through map02.

Funny thing about DV though (unlike HR/HR2) is that it has made me WANT to be able to take on this amount of monsters, because I want to see all the cool architecture.

I'll hold off on any further comments till I've beaten it (though that may take a while with my abilty).

[188DarkRevived]

I loved the textures and the music.
I wish this WAD could be compatible with JDOOM, cause that's my favorite port.
The monster population was far far too exaggerated. I could spend like a whole year attempting to beat these 4 maps on Hurt Me Plenty without cheating.

[Terra-jin]

Deus Vult is indeed a wad with great detail, but the gameplay is too much for my taste. I did complete Hell Revealed, though.

I agree with what Converted DOOMer said about the tactical side of extreme battles. The third battle of Deus Vult, the one with the big round slime pit, is the last one I reached.

There's a few things that make it difficult. There's six rooms with one chaingunner in it, there's four rooms with Hell Knights or Mancubi, and there's the pit from which various monsters spawn.

I immediately ran for cover behind one of the blue pillars near the entry of the area, and used crossfire to kill off most demons that came from the pit. After that, the only survivor was a Spiderdemon Mastermind, which can't leave the center of the slime pool.
I still had to contend with the six chaingunners as well as the Hell Knights and Mancubi, and that Spiderdemon made sure I couldn't go anywhere with my 42 health. What would be your tactics on this particular battle?