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Captain Red

Compared to other game bosses...

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With Mlook and/or IDCLIP cheat-badboss
WIthout mlook and IDCLIP cheat-Goodboss.

I remember, that a long time ago I read in some game magazine that if You would use any kind of cheat while playing Doom2 the Icon of Sin would become invincible. :-/

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The only good thing about it is that unlike Korax, Makron, Eidolon, D'Sparil, and many others, is that it can be reused and doesn't look out of place. The bad thing is that it's just a wall, you must use your imagination to feel that you are fighting a giant demon. The first time I saw it I get quite dissapointed.
Each time I play a megawad and see the final battle I feel the same. The monster fit with the map and with the mod, but still is boring.

That is why I made a patch for this monster, that probably will be in the next new stuff chronicles.

BTW, I don't want to open a thread for this. I rode the FAQ, but I can't find a link to upload wads (only lmps), can someone please put it here?

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It's one of the most stupid things I have ever seen in a game.

It all comes town to shooting some rockets into a small hole while hoping that certain monsters aren't spawned in the meantime. If, for example, an Arch Vile or Arachnotron is spawned you are fucked. So it's more luck than skill. Not good game design at all!

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A good boss if i didn't kick his ass pronto. He's a lot easier with mouse look i might add, and for me, he doesn't much harder if he spawns an arch vile or arachnotron. It does depend on how much ammo i've got.

The icon of sin in hell revealed is fucking hard though, especially with a narrowed target.

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Graf Zahl said:

If, for example, an Arch Vile or Arachnotron is spawned you are fucked.


Just kill them. The icon is a great boss for the game.

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Use3D said:

Just kill them.



And in the meantime 5 more monsters are spawned. The only way to beat an Icon of Sin is to ignore all the monsters. If you don't they will beat you sooner or later.

The icon is an awful boss for the game! :P

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Graf Zahl said:

So it's more luck than skill.

You're just not skilled enough, please don't blame that on chance. Doom is deterministic. Real men adapt their playing to the PRNG.

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Vegeta said:

BTW, I don't want to open a thread for this. I rode the FAQ, but I can't find a link to upload wads (only lmps), can someone please put it here?

If you're talking about uploading to the archive, then you upload to:
ftp://archives.3dgamers.com/pub/idgames/incoming/

The official instructions are here and you can get (unofficial) help here.

As for the Icon battle, archies and PEs are the unignorable ones on NM or -fast (and you might as well BFG the first few monsters anyway, whatever they are, while you're waiting for the platforms and pillar to rise). I think it's a good boss. Better than most, anyway.

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Well, I've never really drawn any comparisons between Doom2's demon-spitter and other game's bosses.

Bosses in general usually tend to be large overpowered monsters, so in the Icon of Sin's favour at least it was something different.

Personally I think the key to having a good boss-fight is having impressive architecture within the level itself, particularly with Doom's demon-spitter.

Alien Vendetta's last level was visually impressive and so was Equinox's. Although the demon-spitter was absent in the latter, the level itself nevertheless gave the game a great climax, boss or not.

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To be honest, I think it's a pretty stupid concept for a boss. The entire challenge of it relies on the fact that limitations in the Doom engine prevent you from aiming your gun downward. So the final climax of the (first) two Doom games is the game mocking its own inadequacies. Plus it isnt obvious to the player how you're even supposed to defeat it. I wonder how many players have got to the last level of Doom 2, spent forever trying to work out what the hell they're supposed to be trying to do and eventually just resorted to cheat codes to complete the game in sheer frustration.

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The Icon Of Sin is a very exellent and original boss. But the sad fact is that many WADs keep on using it over and over and over again.... I think that it's time for another original boss character to be created. Doesn't DeHackEd allow something like this to be done?

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Ultraviolet said:
...the Death Star?

Heh, yeah. I was thinking about this a few days back.

If it's bad or good? Well, naturally quite evil. The design concept itself is pretty cool. It's relatively challenging, and it uses engine features in an interesting way; the monster being a piece of the map, and the player having to cope with the rising pillar (which gives another dimention to rocket aiming) while being harassed by the spawned minions beneath and behind.

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DarkJedi188 said:

The Icon Of Sin is a very exellent and original boss. But the sad fact is that many WADs keep on using it over and over and over again.... I think that it's time for another original boss character to be created. Doesn't DeHackEd allow something like this to be done?

I know a wad that has one.

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BlueSonnet said:

He's a lot easier with mouse look i might add, and for me


mouselook ports should make it invincible when player are using mlook. And make it vulnerable when mlook is disactivated or when view is almost parallelic to the ground ?
This way the boss will be played as he was planned to.

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fraggle said:

I wonder how many players have got to the last level of Doom 2, spent forever trying to work out what the hell they're supposed to be trying to do and eventually just resorted to cheat codes to complete the game in sheer frustration.


I didn't know many codes at the time except IDKFA, but I clearly remember my first battle with the creature. After letting the room fill up, dying many times, I found out how to raise the lift, rode it all the way to the top, and fired at it util I ran out of ammo. Died. Tried again, but by pure accident fired off a shot before the lift reached its peak and was rewarded by a loud 'AwwwRRghh!!'. It felt good to figure it out on my own. I still wasn't skilled enough to beat the thing though, for a while. :P

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I don't enjoy Icon of Sin battles, but for the original appearance, it may have been necessary to avoid the imbalance caused by the BFG, which plagued the Spiderdemon in Doom 1. He could have been either a moderate challenge or a 5-second battle followed by disappointment. A dead exit on map29 could have fixed this though, but they chose a puzzle boss instead. Still, it's better than certain other FPS bosses... the real stinkers... like Shub-Niggurath or Heinrich I.

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Mastermind would have been one sweetily awesome boss if only it had tons more hp.

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Bad. I just don't think he was scary or a really effective endboss. I understand they were limited at what they could have done, but they certainly should have looked into other options instead of choosing to have a stupid wall try and kill you with the same monsters you've fought for 30+ maps.

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I uploaded my Icon of Sin patch (icon_p.zip), I hope that you have fun with it.

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I think the Icon was cool, but I also wouldn't have minded something like another huge monster which would scare the shit out of you like Spider or Cyberdemon did when you first saw them. However the icon did spawn one good thing: one of the best known coolest easter eggs ever

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Icon of Sin is just overdone. At first I thought it was a formidable foe because of the spawn cubes killing the player with god mode, but now I just hate it. Why not come up with new ideas?

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Graf Zahl said:

It's one of the most stupid things I have ever seen in a game.

It all comes town to shooting some rockets into a small hole while hoping that certain monsters aren't spawned in the meantime. If, for example, an Arch Vile or Arachnotron is spawned you are fucked. So it's more luck than skill. Not good game design at all!

i will agree with that

however in all my dooming years i dont ever once remember an archvile being spawned.

i think Id could have done better.

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fraggle said:
To be honest, I think it's a pretty stupid concept for a boss. The entire challenge of it relies on the fact that limitations in the Doom engine prevent you from aiming your gun downward. So the final climax of the (first) two Doom games is the game mocking its own inadequacies. Plus it isnt obvious to the player how you're even supposed to defeat it. I wonder how many players have got to the last level of Doom 2, spent forever trying to work out what the hell they're supposed to be trying to do and eventually just resorted to cheat codes to complete the game in sheer frustration.

Agreed.

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The Icon is like so many other bosses from the 8 bit generation. A massive boss that does nothing but sit there and spawn a multitude of enemies you've seen throughout the past levels. The only novel thing about the Icon is that it's got Romero's head on a stick if you're willing to clip and see it.

This one fails the originality test.

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It quite rare, but Arch-Viles can be spawned. That, the Arachnotron, the Mancubus, and especially the Pain Elementals are the most annoying monsters on map 30.

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