Heresiarch = Scrapped 2nd Serpent Rider?

[CodenniumRed]

Is it true that the Heresiarch from HeXen was originally supposed to be the second serpent rider, instead of the Korax we all know? There are many, many suggestions pointing to this:

1) The end screen of Heretic shows a red, black-robed demon looking through a crystal ball, the first resembling a Heresiarch and the second possibly being what is now the Chaos Sphere. Was he supposedly the 'second' serpent rider at that time?

2) The mannerisms, looks and death of the Heresiarch mirror D'Sparil suspiciousely; both summon the common wizards when their health goes to half or lower, and both die with their skeletons being shown.

3) He looks like a Serpent RIDER, not a Serpent himself. Though Korax is cool-looking, I had wondered how he'd ride something until I saw the directions of 'HeXen II.' They showed him atop of a big tentacle. Not a CHAOS Serpent, I guess, but some sort of Serpent it could be interpreted as at least. Eidolon is more human-shaped, I guess; I could picture him atop a Chaos Serpent.

My guess is that, at first, they felt they needed the Heresiarch in because they had something similar at the end of Heretic (both D'Sparil's Serpent Rider feel and the specific picture of the other guy at the end), but decided to not make him the final boss because he was too similar to D'Sparil. However, they thought him too cool (rightfully so) to leave out once they created him, and named him something other than an individualized 'Serpent Rider' name. Korax gave the needed variation.

Technically, HeXen was originally slated to be 'Heretic II,' so the guy watching Corvus (not yet known to be the hero's name) through the crystal ball was probably originally planned to confront HIM, so they probably made up what came to be the Heresiarch early on.

[DOOM Anomaly]

I always thought the Heresiarch was the super-final-mega-power-bad-evil-crazy-end boss from that end-screen Dee-Lee in Heretic. When I heard that HeXen was like Heretic and saw the Heresiarch sprites, I thought that he was the boss of HeXen, because not only did he look boss-ish to me, but from the Heretic end-screen. I wonder what the real story behind it is.

We must find Sherlock!

[Vegeta]

Where is Ichor when you need him?

[Ichor]

People have been wondering about this for a while, and I really don't know that myself. I've always believed that it was the Heresiarch at the end of Heretic (and he even looks sort of like a large red Sabreclaw with a cloak).

And D'Sparil can summon the wizards at anytime, but he does summon them when he gets too weak.

One thing is for certain, someone fouled up the storyline when they made Hexen 2 and that expansion. There was a discussion about that here.

[Mogul]

And whatever happened to Hecatomb?

Hecatomb was supposed to be the final chapter in the series, right?

[DOOM Anomaly]

Ichor said:

People have been wondering about this for a while, and I really don't know that myself. I've always believed that it was the Heresiarch at the end of Heretic (and he even looks sort of like a large red Sabreclaw with a cloak).

And D'Sparil can summon the wizards at anytime, but he does summon them when he gets too weak.

One thing is for certain, someone fouled up the storyline when they made Hexen 2 and that expansion. There was a discussion about that here.

Unsolved and messed up stories always bug me to the max. :(

:D

[Vile]

Having the Heresiarch be the second serpent rider would have made a lot more sense to me, since it resembles D'Sparil, only with a more demonic look. I never cared for the design of Korax, or the fact that he was less challenging than a Heresiarch, especially since Korax's scripted attacks could have made it possible for him to be more dangerous. Oh well. :)

The result could have been worse anyway... they could have actually used Escargolon in Hexen 2. More about him here, but unfortunately no pictures:

http://www.hexenworld.com/features/chaosint.html

[The Ultimate DooMer]

While we're on the subject, wasn't there also something about the edge of space got torn and the Serpent Riders' souls got released?

DOOM Anomaly said:

Unsolved and messed up stories always bug me to the max. :(

:D

Yeah, like Terminator 3.

[Mogul]

The Ultimate DooMer said:

While we're on the subject, wasn't there also something about the edge of space got torn and the Serpent Riders' souls got released?



Yeah, like Terminator 3.

Or the Best of Pamela Anderson.

[Vile]

The Ultimate DooMer said:

While we're on the subject, wasn't there also something about the edge of space got torn and the Serpent Riders' souls got released?

Yep, that was the really goofy story written in the Hexen 2 manual.

[Ichor]

But it does give me some ideas on my story. That and the fact that it's considered a legend in the story.

[CodenniumRed]

And the Heretic manual says that the Serpent Riders 'wore black cloaks, shrouded in evil, etc.' But not a ONE wears a black hood! The only two who wears one are the Disciples of D'Sparil and the Heresiarch (sorry, Shadow Wizard, you keep your black hood down becasue of your horns).

[Nanami]

Regardless of all evidence or rumors, the fact remains that the Heresiarch is a much more interesting boss than Korax!

And anyone who's ever decided to rip some Hexen monsters used or considered using the Heresiarch for a boss (Doom 2 Extreme, Void, etc).

[Ichor]

Korax did have potential, but it's too bad that the people who made Hexen didn't use him to the fullest. The scripts used were the floor sinking a bit and turning into lava for a few seconds, fireballs falling from the ceilings, spikes raising from the floor, monster summoning, and opening doors to allow other monsters to leave those little rooms they are in. The first half of the battle is far too easy, since he doesn't teleport and he's too big (and slow) to move around. The second half of the battle is more interesting because he can teleport around, but unlike D'Sparil (and contrary to popular belief), it's not random. He teleports in a sequence according to thing number (not tid, and I don't remember right now whether it's in ascending or descending order). The best thing going for Korax is that mapmakers can edit the scripts that he uses to make the battle more challenging. However, the game throws a tantrum if Korax isn't used properly in the game (no teleport spots, for instance).

As for the Heresiarch, he's more interesting and has cooler spells and attacks, but he's not as versatile, and the game has a funny way of running scripts when he dies. Also, he doesn't teleport around like D'Sparil, but that reflective shield more than makes up for that. What I don't like about...well, like the least about anyway...is the bouncing skull attack. They just don't do enough damage to be much of a threat, and their bouncing sound can get annoying, sometimes to the point where I'd just stand there and take the hits just to get rid of them.

So, as for my favorite of the two:

Korax for when I'm making maps (I have a few ideas for him as well)
Heresiarch for when I'm playing the game

Now, if someone (well, besides me) were to combine some aspects of both of them to create an even better monster...

[Fly_895]

I always thought that the demon with the red skin was the boss of HexenII. I vaugely remember that bossing being a large red dragon creature.
Of course, I could easily be wrong.

[Ichor]

Actually, at the end of Hexen, you see a large red hand handling a chess piece made into the shape of Korax. That would be Eidolon (the boss of Hexen 2). I'm not sure if this is true, but Eidolon was originally going to be green, until someone reminded them of Hexen's endscreen.

[chilvence]

Its my own personal theory that Heresiarch was supposed to be the second serpent rider, and that Korax was supposed to be its steed.

Thats right, steed. Look at the similarites between Korax and the chaos serpents, and it almost looks as if Korax was based on the same model. I can only assume that they didnt have time to create another (2?) filler boss(es) for the Seminary level and the Castle of Grief, since it was a relatively short dev cycle. In fact, wasnt there at least one hub that didnt even have a boss at all?

If any of you monster sprite choppers decide to make a Korax riding Heresiarch though, that would make my day ;)

[Ichor]

Only the first hub didn't have a boss. The fourth hub used a second Heresiarch and a malfunctioning script.

[chilvence]

Haha, yeah. I think Ive had to cheat every single time I've done that level.

[Ichor]

Sometimes it works, but more often than not, I have to use noclip to kill those Dark Bishops so that the back wall will lower.

[chilvence]

Someone should make an unofficial patch really (although there probably isnt much point since anyone who still plays hexen should know about this)

What do you thing about my theory though?

[Fly_895]

chilvence said:

Its my own personal theory that Heresiarch was supposed to be the second serpent rider, and that Korax was supposed to be its steed.

You know, that would actually make perfect sense. That would have made Korax and the Heresiarch a much more impressive beast.

Then again, they might have just stuck with a single monster to give off the impression that the overlord of Hexen was much more "powerful" than D'Spiral. After all, this is supposed to be the same guy who has taunted you for the past four or so worlds. You'd go in expecting a big ass enemy to waste, not a human in black robes. It might have also been a bit repetitive to do the same type of confrontation you had at the end of Heretic.

[Ichor]

I've heard it before. I've also heard that Korax indeed looked something like D'Sparil, but at some point merged with the serpent he rode on to produce...that.

As for the script patch, I think that's been fixed in the Korax mod.

[VinceDSS]

maybe it's time to make the story as we would have liked it to be :)
and make 3 new heretic episodes with a new serpent rider in each :)

scripting and neat port features could make something nice.

[chilvence]

Fly_895 said:

You'd go in expecting a big ass enemy to waste, not a human in black robes.

Hardly human looking... and IMO, the Heresiarch looks far more menacing than Korax, who just looks like a stupid insect to me.

Mind you the only bug like monster that's ever impressed me is the Alien, so its probably me.

[188DarkRevived]

I love reading discussion threads such as this one :)
But unfortunately, at this very moment, I can't think of any good original opinions on this topic. Too many people here have already spoken out what I've wanted to say :P

[Vegeta]

IMO Korax is more interesting than the Heresiarchs, the power to manipulate the enviroment is more atractive for me than a reflective spell.
But yes, there is something that doesn't fit, the monster at the end of Heretic looks like a Heresiarch, why a minor character would apear at the end of the game? At the end of Hexen, you see the red hand in the chess board and understand that "the red demon" was not a Heresiarch, but in Hexen II, when you finally confront Eidolon, you you find that he definetly is not "the red demon", he his face and hands are diferent. Then in the other two chapters, there is no mention of this.

Personaly I don't think that Hexen II story ruined the original plot (except for the fact that facing the real "red demon" would be better). I liked also the Mission Pack, a powerfull wizard collection the souls of the defeated Serpent Riders is very interesting. But what IMO really ruined the plot was Heretic II, I mean..

-There are only seven tomes of power.
-The trident was the symbol of the Seraph.
-The end boss has nothing to do with the Serpent Riders, but he isn't a cool foe, he is a weak bastard that just can't be killed (okey, nothing to do with the plot itself, but it sucks).
-The third person view (again, it has nothing to do with the plot, but it sucks too).

I allways hoped that "the red demon" were the father/creator of the Serpent Riders. That would be better imo than modify the third or second Serpent Rider to make it look like him.

[Piezo]

Perhaps John Romero would have information on this?

[Nanami]

Not likely. Romero has nothing to do with Ravensoft.

[Mogul]

Other than he oversaw a lot of the development of that series. In fact, his time spent with that group as opposed to his own, then working on the first Quake, is one reason he was terminated.