Budko's PRBoom TAS 30uv1448

[Mogul]

In light of watching a ton of Vile's two 30nm runs, I decided to visit a favorite just to check it out.

Oh my GOODNESS is this demo awesome. But I have some questions.

I realize that Sedlo recorded this demo with PRBoom, and NOT doom2.exe. I also know that the current uv speed record at C-N right now is 26 minutes. So, what advantage does one get by using PRBoom as opposed to the original engine? Is there an advantage?

If there's not really one, why doesn't Sedlo go back to C-N and just CRUSH the current record?

I must be in the dark here.

[Opulent]

One is cheated, one is not.
One uses save-games(can replay any part until you have it just right) and slow-motion(play the game at a reduced speed to make every second count), and one is not.
the 1441/1448 runs use a modified prboom that allows 'strafe50' to be always on -- this is impossible (as well as being cheating) in any Compet-N demo.
the primary advantage of TAS demos over regular ones is that you can play as recklessly as you like -- you are so much healthier, that you can plan for rocketjumps and 'dangerous' moments in the game which would be probably suicide in a normal demo.
(You'd have to be insane to try the Map29 rj after doing a near-flawless run up to that point in a real demo)
btw, the 14:48 run is by Budko and not Sedlic, but no matter.
edit: that is a reasonable question though.

[Grazza]

I'll also take a stab at this, highlighting some different points...

Note also that Sedlo's 30uv TAS run (16:17) was recorded with TASMBF, which, while also providing TAS features, denied him the possibility of using some tricks (notably a couple of key-grabs) that are available in Doom2.exe and certain other compatible ports.

The difference here isn't between using prboom and using doom2.exe, but between recording a TAS (tools-assisted) run and a standard (unassisted) run. Using Prboom (and modified versions of it) doesn't give you any particular advantages over Doom2.exe unless you use its TAS features or its additional HUD information. And when people have used the TAS features, they should make this very clear in the text-file (unfortunately Andrey Budko left this rather vague, albeit obvious to experienced demo watchers).

Just to explain why TAS enables the player to achieve such a dramatic time improvement, let's suppose that the intended route contains 10 tricks, each with a 20% chance (1 in 5) of working. In a standard run, you can expect to need nearly ten million attempts (5*5*5*5*5*5*5*5*5*5 = 5^10) before you achieve a run where you execute all the tricks successfully. In other words, you're just not going to do it. In a TAS run, you can save after each trick, and so it can be expected to take about 50 attempts (5+5+5+5+5+5+5+5+5+5 = 5*10) before recording a successful TAS demo (and that's without taking into account any benefit from using slow motion). This is obviously a more manageable task, and enables the player to get the run much closer to optimal.

[Mogul]

Huh.

I didn't know so many things were aided with the port. That is one fine movie to watch though, if for nothing else just because it's just incredibly fast.

[Grazza]

A good TAS demo still requires a lot of skill (it's no accident that the best TAS demos are by guys who have also done lots of fantastic non-assisted demos). You're still playing the game. It's just that if you make a mistake, you can go back and correct it. In a "standard" demo, if something goes wrong, the player just has to carry on (or quit).

[Mogul]

Yeah, I REALLY must say that's the most entertaining demo I've ever, ever, ever seen. I'd like to see a similar one done on nm.. but I seriously doubt that it could be that fast.

[Grazza]

The fastest TAS 30nm demo is Sedlo's old 30nm1849. (You can watch it with MBF, Prboom or Eternity.)

Definitely worth watching. :) Sedlo did this one before his 30uv1617 (which featured some small route improvements). I wouldn't like to speculate how much faster it could go with current route improvements (most notably Sedlo's map07 idea), but perhaps it "ought" to be a couple of minutes slower than UV.

My vote for most entertaining TAS demo still goes to Cam's pn22-123 (get it here) - HR map22 NM Pacifist.

[doomaddict]

A hell-revealed demo in NM? That is AMAZING.

What is pacifist?

[Darkman 4]

Get out of the level without shooting anything. (exept switches that need to be shot)

[Mogul]

Grazza said:

The fastest TAS 30nm demo is Sedlo's old 30nm1849. (You can watch it with MBF, Prboom or Eternity.)

Definitely worth watching. :) Sedlo did this one before his 30uv1617 (which featured some small route improvements). I wouldn't like to speculate how much faster it could go with current route improvements (most notably Sedlo's map07 idea), but perhaps it "ought" to be a couple of minutes slower than UV.

My vote for most entertaining TAS demo still goes to Cam's pn22-123 (get it here) - HR map22 NM Pacifist.

Hm, yeah, I'd like to see an updated nm run now that the uv is improved.

And doomaddict --

http://www.doom2.net/compet-n/index.cgi

Click on database for IWAD demos and click PWADs for demos for stuff like Hell Revealed and MM. These demos (unless noted otherwise) are all 100% uncheated. No tool assistance at all.

They were recorded with doom(2).exe but will run with PRBoom, Eternity, and/or perhaps MBF.

If you have Windows 98 though, I would suggest using doom.exe (doom2, whatever) to play them back so that it's more authentic.

Enjoy these world record demos. :)

[Grazza]

Here's the detailed definition of UV Pacifist from compet-n:

UV Pacifist: finishing the level as fast as possible, in Ultra Violence, with the following restrictions: not harming monsters directly (no shooting at, chainsawing, boxing monsters), not harming monsters indirectly (exploding barrels that hurt monsters, activating crushers that hurt monsters). Allowed is making monsters fight each other and unintentional telefrags.

NM Pacifist is the same, but on NM (obviously).

Note that map22 is one of the most violent and difficult maps in HR. No one has done this map on NM in a non-TAS demo, BTW. There are quite a few HR NM demos on other maps at compet-n though: NM NM with 100% secrets.

[Mogul]

Was it ever decided how to pronounce COMPET-N? I actually emailed Adam about it once, but he didn't reply. :O

[Grazza]

http://www.doomworld.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=381839#post381839

[Mogul]

Wow - I totally missed that. :D

COMPET-N (en) it is then.

[Mogul]

Sorry to double post -- but I don't get something... The 30nm1849 (I think that's the right time) demo you showed me indeed doesn't work in doom2.exe. What's up with that? I mean, the 30uv bu budko does.

What is the difference in how they're made?

[VinceDSS]

The 30nm1849 has been recorded with tasmbf. And only lpays with it or the regular MBF.
All sedlo's TAS runs (30uv, 30nm and plutonia 1-15) have been recorded with TASMBF... it's because at that time there was no demo cheating tools besides TASMBF and TASDoom, which are not 100% compatible with doom2.exe. Now we have budko's prboom for the ultimate cheating tool.

[Grazza]

mje said:

The 30nm1849 (I think that's the right time) demo you showed me indeed doesn't work in doom2.exe.

I had said above:
The fastest TAS 30nm demo is Sedlo's old 30nm1849. (You can watch it with MBF, Prboom or Eternity.)

Basically, it works with anything that supports MBF-format demos. That might also include Cdoom 2.05.

[Mogul]

Right, Grazza. I did end up watching it in prBoom, but I was just wondering why it was not playable with doom2.exe.

I think I get it now.