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Endureth

The problem with slowing things down

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Ya know, I agree that current FPS games move a little too fast. When I play Wolfenstein, people are moving around very quickly and while deep down inside I feel things need to be slowed down a bit, I can't help but ask myself how this will help gameplay.

In wolfenstein, no matter how fast someone is moving, I can kill them and keep my weapon trained on them until they're dead. If the game were slowed down it would be even easier for me to kill people.

If the game is slowed down then people are going to have to be able to take more hits before they die to retain the fun. What's Doom going to be like multi-player? Will I be dancing in fire-fights like I do in Wolf? Are people constantly going to be coming out of shadows and killing someone before they can react due to the new lighting effects? Is it goinmg to be a rocket launcher deathfest? None of those sound like very much fun to me.

What do ya'll think?

-E

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Doom 3 has per-polygon hit detection, which means it's gonna be way harder to hit a moving target. Besides, the mp portion of the game is said to have been sped up compared to the sp part.

I wouldn't worry about the mp, but I know for sure that a bunch of hardcore Doom fans are crying about the reduced speed in sp.

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Alientank said:

I'm sure there's a simple .ini file to edit for SP play to move you along faster.

Yeah well then the problem would be that the game isn't designed with fast pace in mind.
It'd likely fuck up the game if players altered their movement speed.

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If the game is slowed down then people are going to have to be able to take more hits before they die to retain the fun. What's Doom going to be like multi-player? Will I be dancing in fire-fights like I do in Wolf? Are people constantly going to be coming out of shadows and killing someone before they can react due to the new lighting effects? Is it goinmg to be a rocket launcher deathfest? None of those sound like very much fun to me.


Well, it won't be too slow. They're keeping much of q3a's physics base for doom3 - of course, with some modified settings (to be expected). I've even heard a report from someone who had a chance to playtest that there's even trimping physics (where you jump off a ramp for additional height). This definately isn't the making for slow MP... although Id has said that shadows and such will play a part. One of my favorite quotes was relating to barrels actually being useful in MP :)

I guess we'll have to wait and see. I'm sure it'll be good, Id really has never steered us wrong... I'm anxious to see how the per-pixel detection works, and rocket bounce (they bounce quite a bit I hear, mid-airs will be tough with per-pixel hitboxes :p).

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I've always wondered what people have against high framerate; for me the faster the better, especially in multiplayer (you know, 'realism' etc) and as such I for one loved the speed of Q3A/RTCW, also the way you can pump up the fps even higher *grrr*. But each to their own, I suppose when you think of Doom 64 and it's slow pace...

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Endureth said:

Great. I hated Q3.

:(

-E


I would suggest spending ample time playing the game and learning to appreciate it's supurb weapon balance and fun physics. In my opinion, and the opinion of most professional gamers, it is the best designed "arena" style game available to date.

As far as my experience goes, the fight for best designed deathmatch ever is between DOOM II and Quake 3.

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mje said:

I would suggest spending ample time playing the game and learning to appreciate it's supurb weapon balance and fun physics. In my opinion, and the opinion of most professional gamers, it is the best designed "arena" style game available to date.

As far as my experience goes, the fight for best designed deathmatch ever is between DOOM II and Quake 3.


So there IS someone else out there who appreciates Quake 3's greatness...

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Absolutely. I think the only people that wouldn't consider Quake III extremely good are very casual gamers. They simply don't play it enough (or watch demos of pros) to appreciate how well it is designed.

At any rate - on topic - DOOM 3's multiplayer should be fine. Has id ever screwed up a multiplayer game?

No. At least not until they release something better. ie Quake III > Quake II.

DOOM II > DOOM. etc

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DoomUK said:

So there IS someone else out there who appreciates Quake 3's greatness...


I do. I map for it over Doom, actually.

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The reasons I hated Q3 are varied. I definately don't like every man for himself type FPS's. I know Quakle had CTF but I never got the feeling I was on a team. Also, every time I played I always seemed to die in just one shot, that right there was the biggest drawback for me. Unless you played the game religiously, you coulnd't compete.

I prefer RtCW. It definately has more of a team feel to it. That's what keeps me playing it. I play Wolf a lot and I don't suck at it. I'm always one of the top three. Well, not always, I have bad days and when they're bad, they're really bad.

They're both totally different games, it's a matter of personal taste I suppose. I would consider re-installing Q3 again just to give it another go around but I don't feel like going all over the net downloading all the mods I'll probably need to play on most servers now-a-days.

-E

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Well lads, whatever the final answer to this pending question will turn out to be, we won't have to torture ourselves playing the waiting game as Quakecon is right around the corner, and if the latest gossip scattered around the net is any indication of what we could expect from this year's most inclusive event, we are bound to stumble on the final answer muy pronto! :)

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Endureth said:

The reasons I hated Q3 are varied. I definately don't like every man for himself type FPS's.


Quake III has 1v1. In fact, I play 1v1 exclusively in Quake III.

Also, every time I played I always seemed to die in just one shot, that right there was the biggest drawback for me. Unless you played the game religiously, you coulnd't compete.


One shot kills are much more common in DOOM than they are in Quake III. It's far easier to kill someone in DOOM. Especially in Old Deathmatch (which is basically all anyone plays in 1v1).

As for playing the game religiously - again, it's just like DOOM - an EXTREMELY tough learning curve. Just like you can't just hop in and beat Ocelot in DOOM II, you can't hop in and beat Cooller or fox or ZeRo4, or whomever, in Quake III. It's a sport - not just a casual game (just like DOOM).

I prefer RtCW. It definately has more of a team feel to it. That's what keeps me playing it. I play Wolf a lot and I don't suck at it. I'm always one of the top three. Well, not always, I have bad days and when they're bad, they're really bad.



Cool! Wolf is pretty cool. I haven't played in a while though. heh.

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I've always wondered what people have against high framerate; for me the faster the better, especially in multiplayer

We're talking about fast first person shooters, not high frames per second :) of course the higher the better - except quake3, which should always be 125...

Anyway, I don't like quake3 all that much, I respect the competition very much but the dominant hitscan makes me wary of it. I have played it semi-professionally, but eh, the railgun/lg game just makes me uninterested after a while - not long enough to go pro with it. Really, I'm all about projectiles - rockets, to be specific. My life revolves around rocket bounce and juggles. So quake3's rockets being reduced to cover/spam kind of sucked for me.

But the physics that I mentioned are by far the best thing about it. Quake3's physics are such that they take longer to master than the game itself. There's a huge community for 'trickjumping' which is basically physics exploitation to do some amazing things (tons of movies that demonstrate this also, can link some good ones if anyone wants me to). Of course, the bugs like overbouncing won't be in doom3, but if all they keep is strafejumping it'll still be leaps ahead of the competition. err.. no pun intended.

Movement skills are very important in games - something not a lot of people realize. There's a huge difference between someone camping behind a box and hitting a target perfectly and someone bunnyhopping at 750 UPS, doing a 90o angle snap and railing someone perfectly.

Also, I wonder if doom3 will have plasma climbing... :>

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TwiNCannoN said:

But the physics that I mentioned are by far the best thing about it. Quake3's physics are such that they take longer to master than the game itself. There's a huge community for 'trickjumping' which is basically physics exploitation to do some amazing things (tons of movies that demonstrate this also, can link some good ones if anyone wants me to). Of course, the bugs like overbouncing won't be in doom3, but if all they keep is strafejumping it'll still be leaps ahead of the competition. err.. no pun intended.


Ah, ah, so true.

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i never really liked quake 3. it was alright, but nothing special. the engine made them more money, i am sure, that game sales.

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I dont mind fast paced FPS's, i loved the hotel level of sof2 cause you could get it round with the shotgun blasting people before they can react to you, just like doom with more gore, but the jungle levels where agonisingly slow-paced and pissed me off, but the sawying plants and half-light didnt help. I imagine doom 3 will generally be midway between those two extremes, but also it will be doom 3, so will be teh best thing evar!!!1

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They wanna make the game atmospherically creepy. Slower you move, scarier it is: more anxiety and anticipation as to what's gonna jump out and eat you.

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True - but I'm pretty sure MP is going to be as fast as pretty much any one of the Quakes.

Plus - shadows can't be disabled in mp, so it will indeed be creepy. Can't wait. :)

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mje said:

True - but I'm pretty sure MP is going to be as fast as pretty much any one of the Quakes.

Plus - shadows can't be disabled in mp, so it will indeed be creepy. Can't wait. :)


I don't see anything arong with that. Make it more fun and give the two different modes of play all that much more distinction.

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mje said:

I would suggest spending ample time playing the game and learning to appreciate it's supurb weapon balance and fun physics. In my opinion, and the opinion of most professional gamers, it is the best designed "arena" style game available to date.

As far as my experience goes, the fight for best designed deathmatch ever is between DOOM II and Quake 3.

Yeah, when I used to play regularly, 1v1 was the only game mode I'd play. My strategy is better than my actual aim in Q3, and level control and strategy elements take much more of a front seat in 1v1. I used to be able to beat lower-ping players with far better aims than me if I was playing certain maps, just due to general control of resources.

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DoomUK said:

So there IS someone else out there who appreciates Quake 3's greatness...

Yeah, Q3A rocks! Can never get enough of it. When I'm not DooMing.

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I only played the first quake, which gives me a bad opinion, cause i never payed Q3. Im sure it's great and all, but I got sick of brown and grey. REAL sick. Also, for any of you who care, I remember an interview in a Doom 2 guide i bought years ago that had Romero describing the brand spanking new Quake coming out soon, and how it'll blow everything away! It was rather hilarious if you look at his description, and the real thing. I'll find it sometime.

Also, i do know that at this point, a lot of people have probably read this interview.

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