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Trilinear

The end of E1M8 - theories

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Look, you do die at the end of e1.


You DO end up on the Deimos base. That is true, and no one disputes that. However, the fact is, Deimos is actually hovering over Hell at that point.

It's obvious that the player DOES die -- so what then?

I believe he "wakes up" at the Deimos base, which is "basically" in Hell.

So why don't you go directly to Hell instead of the Deimos base? Well, hey, DOOM doesn't have much of a story, and doesn't make a whole lot of sense (an Earth-like atmosphere and Earth GRAVITY on Mars' moons?! wtf), so an explination isn't really given.

In my opinion, the most logical solution to the e1m8 mystery is, you die, and arrive at the "Shores of Hell."

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Well, in the manual is said that the UAC experimented the teleportation betwen Phobos and Deimos. As Deimos was absorved by hell, the end of E1 is your teletransportation to the other moon base, but travel now is altered by hell.

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I agree with Ling on this one. I always kinda figured you had to get to Hell by dieing.

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Straight from the man. I was right. :)

My conversation with John Romero:

Mogul:
Hey - I'm sorry to bug you. But I want to ask this. What is it that happens at the end of DOOM's E1M8? Do you die and go to Hell?

The Romero says:
yep

Mogul:
OK, going into it just a little more, is there any particular reason that you wake up on Deimos instead of Hell? I know that's pushing it for details. Just checking

The Romero:
because that's where the phobos anomaly was linked

Mogul:
The Phobos anomaly being the room you die in at the end of E1? You're saying you have to be dead in that room to get to Deimos?

The Romero says:
yes, that's the room. it's not that you HAVE to be dead - it's just a flimyass story!

Mogul:
Heh. Just checking!

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mje said:

Straight from the man. I was right. :)

Nice, well I guess that settles it then!

Still reckon it should have been clearer in the ending text though. But it's nice to know that "Phobos Anomoly" refers directly to the black room at the end of the level, which never clicked before for me.

But hang on, if you die on Episode 1 - how can you use weapons in the subsequent games? Surely this isn't possible. And why can the player die *again* if he gets damaged too much? Where does he go then?

Perhaps the player is resurrected immediately after the gate travel, once he has reached hell.

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What's pretty funny is the first version of Doom I played was the SNES. You could only play the other episodes on higher difficulties and the beating one episode actually continued right into another provided the skill level is set high enough for it to be playable. Well when I first beat episode 1 it was on a skill too low to play episode 2, so it just went back to the title without even showing the ending text. I beat the barons, stepped on teleporter, get a blitzed in a pitch black room for a split second, and it goes straight back to the title screen leaving me really wondering what the hell just happened.

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Gokuma said:

What's pretty funny is the first version of Doom I played was the SNES. You could only play the other episodes on higher difficulties and the beating one episode actually continued right into another provided the skill level is set high enough for it to be playable. Well when I first beat episode 1 it was on a skill too low to play episode 2, so it just went back to the title without even showing the ending text. I beat the barons, stepped on teleporter, get a blitzed in a pitch black room for a split second, and it goes straight back to the title screen leaving me really wondering what the hell just happened.


Oh my lord, I hated the SNES port. :(

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Job said:

Godmode can be overridden if enough damage is done to the player.

This particular sector type disables IDDQD-based god mode. The "1000 damage kills you even while invulnerable" (or whatever it is) is a different thing.

BTW, TVR! map14 is one example of a map that uses this type of sector not at the end of an episode - so you can play around with it and see if you can actually manage to die in that sector.

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Gokuma said:

beating one episode actually continued right into another provided the skill level is set high enough for it to be playable.

That sounds cool, did you progress immediately to E2M1 with all your weapons and items intact (Hexen-style)? Or did it just plonk you in with 100% health and minimum weapons as per the default?

Anyone know of a mod which incorporates this continuous episode-flow behaviour? If not, I might make one myself...

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Romero just has an opinion of what he produced. The truth is that the dark end of Episode 1 is simply meant to leave the player saying "uh, shit, what now? Did I just die there? What's after the dark room full of gunfire and growls?! I want to know."

Additionally, the creatures in the pitch blackness seem to be hurting you a lot, giving you another reason to want to toast them.

You get such impressions especially if you're someone who downloaded the shareware and hasn't played any of the rest, and it piques your interest over the game a notch more.

And you know there's more levels to come, so you don't really believe you're actually dead.

Obviously the shareware's there to make you buy the rest.

Linguica said:
But then again nowhere else, especially the text after you beat the game, does it mention you being dead,

Exactly; the fact is that it's never even mentioded, ever, that the Player dies or anything like that.

When you start Episode 2 with your trusty pistol in your hand you just say "ah, I'm safe and sound after all; time to kick some butt!"

I'm sure that at least one of the guys who made I'd must have read Dante's Divine Comedy; probably Petersen, perhaps one of the artists, where...

I cannot clearly say how I had entered
the wood; I was so full of sleep just at
the point where I abandoned the true path.

Of course, in DOOM the deep, deathly sleepiness is replaced by a painful ambush that leaves you dazed but ready, gazing onto the shores of Hell, akin to the dark and obstructive wooded vale that led Dante and his guide to the gates of Hell:

Ah, it is hard to speak of what it was,
that savage forest, dense and difficult,
which even in recall renews my fear:

Just like in Dante, in classic literature heroes go to Hell without dying; they simply find a cave of a nook that leads them to Hell; in DOOM, a teleporter located exactly on Phobos' Anomaly. The receiving Anomaly, apparently, was well guarded, and not exactly well illuminated.

Trilinear said:
Anyone know of a mod which incorporates this continuous episode-flow behaviour? If not, I might make one myself...

Yeah I know of such a "mod;" it's called DOOM II: Hell on Earth.

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This is an interesting thread alright.

I'd never given the dead thing a huge deal of thought before, but I think we have to conclude that you have to keep an open mind in the presence of id's very earthly desire to keep people wanting to buy the full version of the game with an ambiguous ending, hence Romero's 'flimyass' comment.

If we consider all the pwads, which you may or may not consider some part of the 'official' or 'canon' or whatever Doom universe, that end with that special sector damaging you, then we have to remember you start the next map alive with very low health. This suggests maybe you don't die, you're just softened up for the next assault perhaps.

Or you could see that as improper use of that sector by map authors, which I must say I often find the case, espcially if they provide 4 medikits at the start of the next map. Surely if you're going to use that to end a level you want it for gameplay purposes so the player has a greater challenge in the next map? Anyway, if you feel this way the death theory comes back into play, and I don't see what's wrong with suggesting the anomaly can take you to Deimos whilst you're dead and then resurrect you at the other side. After all, you can be telefragged just hopping a few metres :) The forces UAC tapped into are powerful.

Credence is lent to this theory by the fact that after E2 you 'clamber' to the edge of the moon, and then 'rappel' down into E3, which I always thought was a bit lame, but whatever. And after E3 the doorway opens up of course, so you never actually teleport to another episode again in the game.

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myk said:

I'm sure that at least one of the guys who made I'd must have read Dante's Divine Comedy; probably Petersen, perhaps one of the artists, where...

oh for the love of pete

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Grazza said:

BTW, TVR! map14 is one example of a map that uses this type of sector not an the end of an episode - so you can play around with it and see if you can actually manage to die in that sector.



You can try as long as you want and you will never die there. The game specifically prevents the player from dying in this type of sector.

Plutonia Map11 also uses this sector special in one of Map11 exits. There you are assaulted by 4 Arch Viles but they will never be able to kill you too.

And here's why:

	// end of game hell hack
	if (target->subsector->sector->special == 11
	    && damage >= target->health)
	{
	    damage = target->health - 1;
	}

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Linguica said:

oh for the love of pete


Yeah, seriously. Romero's opinion of DOOM is "just" an opinion? I don't want to look too closed minded in saying this -- but come on.

Some people are looking FAR too much into this. As Romero wrote to me yesterday -- "It's just a flimsy-ass story." Those are his words, but of course, he misspelled "flimsy."

At any rate, it is what it is, and for us to add to it would be kind of a an empty way to spend time. Save it for the fan fiction section.

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Linguica said:
oh for the love of pete

Oh Lord almighty. My point is naturally how someone with a somewhat more interesting perspective (obviously in relation to what Romero said) on the design could well "explain" that part, or reference it, or relate it, or give it conceptual life, if not aesthetic or entertaining justification.

Or am I working with conclusive evidence as opposed to thought out relations? You already had the start of my post for a down to earth, material look at the possible genesis of the end of Episode 1.

mje said:
some people are looking FAR too much into this. As Romero wrote to me yesterday -- "It's just a flimsy-ass story." Those are his words, but of course, he misspelled "flimsy."

Yes, some people drew conclusions that the Player definitely dies because they saw his health dropping, and because Romero e-mailed someone replying "oh, yeah, he dies." Romero can say what he will; but that something related to, and aside from, the actual make-up of the game itself. Be it gameplay (the BFG, even) or design. I mean, for instance, he's supposedly mostly responsible for inserting Episode 4 into the design "story-wise."

At any rate, it is what it is, and for us to add to it would be kind of a an empty way to spend time.

Exactly; you can't say you die from playing the game. Other than the rapidly decreasing heath that ends at 1-9%, there is nothing about that in the game.

Save it for the fan fiction section.

We do assume you're not talking about what I posted here. For, I made fictional additions? Where on my speculations regarding the development of Episode 1's end could someone see these? Which part of what I wrote is not in DOOM already, aside from the learned guesses relating it to things the authors themselves have hinted, guesses which are quite in line with what this thread is about?

pritch said:
and then 'rappel' down into E3, which I always thought was a bit lame, but whatever.

But then again the Player can jump down deep pits with but a simple "ungh" and no sign of physical damage... an ability that's exploited even more in DOOM II, where the player hops down from very tall buildings without concern.

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I missed the part where Romero said that you do die, and yet that's not true.

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mje said:

I missed the part where Romero said that you do die, and yet that's not true.

Well, didn't he answer "yep" to your question as to whether the player dies and goes to hell at the end of the level - you missed this?

Perhaps the reason why you "technically" don't actually die, is that the game would simply sit there with a red screen rather than continuing onto the end credits. Maybe the game requires you to be fit and healthy for those kinds of special events to occur? The fact that your health *almost* runs out would seem to indicate that the designers intended you to think that you did indeed die, or were dying - but without *actually* dying. Heh.

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Perhaps I should've clarified a bit more.

I know that the player dies. I know that Romero told me himself that the player DOES INDEED die. The "I missed the part" thing was about the latter portion of that post. The part where I said, "and yet that's not true." One can say all that they want to back up their "theory" or whatever, but if Romero's words are in contradiction to a person's opinion that didn't design the game, who am I to believe?

Hmm let me think about that. Oh! I know! I'll believe the person that has the most "interesting" "theory" and forget what the designer said, because it's boring! yaaay

:(

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Graf Zahl said:

You can try as long as you want and you will never die there. The game specifically prevents the player from dying in this type of sector.

Well, it is possible to construct a situation where the player's health sort of hits zero in such a sector.

I have noticed that if you use a rocket-suicide to teleport into one of these sectors with 0% health (that's quite easy on TVR map14), you don't exit. However, if you enter the sector as a zombie, then you do exit (I used this in a zombie demo through episode 1).

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mje said:
I know that the player dies. I know that Romero told me himself that the player DOES INDEED die. The "I missed the part" thing was about the latter portion of that post. The part where I said, "and yet that's not true." One can say all that they want to back up their "theory" or whatever, but if Romero's words are in contradiction to a person's opinion that didn't design the game, who am I to believe?

You "know" he dies, Romero told you; I put forth, among other people, a bunch of points showing why at most the game gives you the impression that perhaps he might have died, or more spot-on, gives an unconcerned okay to "alright, if you want to believe he died, the story won't exactly stop you." And Romero is just one in a bunch of guys who made the game; his lone opinion doesn't define how the game is if it doesn't necessarily stick to it. An author's words are relevant, especially in showing the way the author sees his work... however, it is indeed dull and limiting to stick to what an author says about his work over and above the nature of that work. Once it's done, a game, a book, a song, or whatever, takes a life of its own and others can find relations that have escaped the author... especially in an instance with multiple authors working together.

And... belief? Observe, consider things, and draw your own conclusions from the facts, ideas and materials presented. You may leave the believing aside for when you go to church on sundays.

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Well put, myk.

EDIT -- I see where you're coming from, but still disagree. A song could mean a million things to a million different people. This, however, is a story with objective events and happenings. If Romero said you die, then you die. That's not up for interpretation, like vague lyrics to a song are.

But again I point to Romero's opinion of the story itself -- the story is very shallow; there is nothing deep to it. And there never was meant to be anything deep to it. You mentioned the "nature" of the creation -- the nature of this story is to satisfy anyone that would ask why you're blowing all these pink demons away. It was never meant to be taken at anything but face value, and I would bank on that. What we have is what we have concerning the matter, and as of late, what we have DOES include a maker's understanding of what happened in HIS game.

I simply fail to see where Romero's "opinion" (i.e. truth) about his game somehow falls in the same category as fan fiction (i.e. what we make up by ourselves). Especially in a matter as simple as this. You die -- that's just all there is to it. You die.

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I think if the average non-doom playing person saw this thread they'd move to have us all committed.

But anyway, mje, what I would say to you is, yes, Romero is a bigger authority than any of us can ever be, but he himself has admitted it is a bit fimsy (I preferred flimyass actually, I thought maybe it was an American saying but nevermind).

I'll give you an example from Star Trek just to finally consign myself to the geek bin. They always have a lot of 'gaps' left when it comes to 'facts' that cannot simply be filled with airtime alone. So fans fill them in, correct errors and improve consistency over time. Because of the way Star Trek is run, these things often become canon.

I mean we're chewing over this Doom thing for 10 years, Romero et al. stopped thinking about it a long time ago. We can come up with better explanations and IMO that will hold as much sway as anything that has gone before. I do agree though that we should consider the player as dead now sometime before he's put on Deimos.

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Grazza said:
Well, it is possible to construct a situation where the player's health sort of hits zero in such a sector.

True, but did you see what happens if you do nothing and let the cybie just shoot you? Heh.

This makes me recall this curiosity, though unfortunately the example wad is gone.

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Yes, there are two possible outcomes that I am aware of: you reach map02 with 0% health (i.e. a zombie) or 200% health/armour. I actually put the megasphere there so that the cyber would have more time to get his rocket off if the player starting mucking about. However, it also has the interesting effect you mention: the player gets zombified, a voodoo doll (I think?) picks up a megasphere and so we start map02 as a normal player with 200/200.

In Zdoom, there are two possible outcomes that I have seen: you die, or else you exit with 1% health (the cyber is too slow every now and then).

BTW, if you telefrag a voodoo doll in one of these sectors, you exit with 1% health (I tried that...).

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It does make you wonder why the hero has to die at e1m8. Questions do spring to mind. What's the point? If demons from the spirit world (a bizarre term yes) can come into our material world through the teleporters without a fuss why can't we do that to their world? Why not it be just a gateway, a teleporter to the lost deimos base now in hell?

I figure that
a) As mentioned already, the plot to doom is "flimyassed" which pretty much covers the above in a sense.
b) The fact that id has him dying at the end e1m8 was due to circumstances at the time. I'm referring to the gap between the shareware and the full game. In order to stimulate enough curiousity to make someone who played the shareware buy the full game, they gotta chuck in something just as worthwhile as new levels, guns and baddies for the new game. Example, if the hero had properly saved the day at the end of e1m8 then gamers may not have been as interested in the full game, but to hav him dead at the end of the shareware? It makes you wonder what happens to hero now his died and gone to hell. Thus gamers wanna get the full game.

Bit of a vague theory imo but there you go.

edit: Also lets not forget that in the plot the volunteers that entered the gateways during the testing stage could have had similar experiences to what the player has in e1m8 gateway, with the vision of being ripped apart by monsters and all (though i see that Romero has confirmed that the player dies).

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Well, when you start in E2M1 there's a window behind you... surely THAT has to have something to do with all this.

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