Doom 2: Where's the consistent theme?

[duncan]

These Days, mapping experts and reviewers claim that consistence of theme through maps of longer Wads is essential. A Wad is scorned brutally if it has a randomally inconsistent theme. Yet, the creation itself (Yes, I mean Doom) appears to have little consistence (well thats a bitof a lie, I'm talking about Doom 2 really) So the set of levels that really kicked off level editing really showed a bad example. What the hell's going on!? Did Doom 2 have a secret consistence of theme, Do we not like Doom 2 at all, despite the fact it made the community what it is today? or have our tastes moved on sincethen and the desire for theme consistence has grown as new maps have developed. Your thoughts please!! :)

[Linguica]

Doom 2 didn't have one theme, it had about 31 themes.

This is not a bad thing. For one thing, it means that the player is always seeing something "new" instead of, say, base level after base level. E1 was great and all but that doesn't mean that a consistent theme is required. For another thing, it gives mappers 31 themes to emulate so they don't have to try to come up with their own texture/architecture motif.

I like Doom 2's levels more than Doom 1 but I've learned that I am in a vocal minority on the issue.

[Rob McKai]

Whats this talk of big wads all the time. The consistency of my wad is always consistently white. Thick and white, thats how your wad is supposed to be. Nonetheless, DooM 2 sucks Doom rules. I've been saying that since I was 8 years old. By the end of this year I'll be saying DooM rules DooM 2 sucks and my 166pentium didn't run DooM 3 very well. It only managed about 20fps running on a Voodoo 3.

[Bashe]

Well, Doom has a lot of themes. I wouldn't say the theme is exactly scary unless you're a little kid. It's more like dark and creepy.

But who's to say I'm right?¿?¿ :Þ

[Erp]

You run, shoot, and blow things up. You kill and enjoy the bloody parts flying everywhere.

[Grazza]

duncan said:

These Days, mapping experts and reviewers claim that consistence of theme through maps of longer Wads is essential. A Wad is scorned brutally if it has a randomally inconsistent theme.

You generally see criticism of that type when themes vary randomly within a map (e.g. you go from one room/area to the next, and the theme is utterly different, without rhyme or reason), rather than the themes varying from one map to the next.

It can be nice to have running themes throughout a multi-level wad, but I think the main thing is that each map works well in itself. And I believe that is the case with Doom2.

[Darkhaven]

Theme? Doom2? What?

[Revenant100]

While I don't think the levels in Doom 2 had any common theme between them, I think they do have some sort of logical progression. The maps start out base and human-built sort of things, like Doom guy ended up at another UAC complex on Earth from the teleporter on Deimos (Or whatever episode 4 was supposed to be) with demons populating them and turning any human soldiers into zombies. Eventually Doom guy makes it to his home town/the city and frees all the humans, at which point the levels start to become more Hellish. Somewhere between then and Map30 he ends up in Hell itself (probably through some teleporter at the end of a map, I don't remember right now) and all human-built structures are now gone and are replaced by demonic architecture. Since most people believe Hell is located within the core of the planet, perhaps Doom guy never left Earth at all, but ventured down to the core itself. I don't think Doom 2's theme is quite as defined as Doom's episodes, but the little text interjections after some levels sort of give an explanation as to what you're seeing.

At least, that's how I interpret it.

[MagnuM]

Revenant100 said:

While I don't think the levels in Doom 2 had any common theme between them, I think they do have some sort of logical progression. The maps start out base and human-built sort of things, like Doom guy ended up at another UAC complex on Earth from the teleporter on Deimos (Or whatever episode 4 was supposed to be) with demons populating them and turning any human soldiers into zombies. Eventually Doom guy makes it to his home town/the city and frees all the humans, at which point the levels start to become more Hellish. Somewhere between then and Map30 he ends up in Hell itself (probably through some teleporter at the end of a map, I don't remember right now) and all human-built structures are now gone and are replaced by demonic architecture. Since most people believe Hell is located within the core of the planet, perhaps Doom guy never left Earth at all, but ventured down to the core itself. I don't think Doom 2's theme is quite as defined as Doom's episodes, but the little text interjections after some levels sort of give an explanation as to what you're seeing.

At least, that's how I interpret it.

i agree this guy has got a good point.

[deathbringer]

Yeah, as people have said, theme variation IN maps is bad, though E2 style kind of mixes two themes, but it does it well, another example of common mixed themes is brick/metal, but, running through technological coriddors in a space station and suddenly ending up in a wood/marble area isnt a good idea, unless there is some kind of 'transition' or teleporting. However, theme changing between levels isnt so much of an issue, unless all the levels are supposed to be in one place (like different facilities on a large base..as in E1), but in something like Community chest, theme changing isnt so bad, because its just a collection of maps that play well, even though one minute youre in a futuristic mars base, and the next youre in a derelict police station that looks very modern-times

[Ryback]

Doom2 is a bit random with its themes, but it's more cohesive than most megawads. First you've got the small iron-tech American McGee levels. Then come the huge city levels, most making a big use of outdoor areas, and full of large packs of dangerous monsters. Finally the hellish levels, which have fewer enemies but a far more dangerous environment (radiation, lava etc), lots of red, and little health.

So there's progression and continuity, at the least.

[Vegeta]

My only complaint are the city maps.

[NiGHTMARE]

Rob McKai said:

By the end of this year I'll be saying DooM rules DooM 2 sucks and my 166pentium didn't run DooM 3 very well. It only managed about 20fps running on a Voodoo 3.

I think you'd be lucky to get 0.2 FPS let alone 20...

[Dittohead]

Vegeta said:

My only complaint are the city maps.

I agree - those levels are just awful. I usually just skip right over playing them... those are like what, maps 11-17 or so?

[DooMBoy]

It's true that Doom2 may have had 31 different themes to work with, but to my eyes, those are 31 ugly themes.

[LexiMax]

One of the great things about the origional Doom was the incredable sense of place that there was in Episode 1. You actually felt like you were wandering around different parts of a UAC base. This, plus the location map between levels, made it feel like I was actually somewhere, instead of just some random level.

Doom 2 had none of this. I mean, it didn't even have a location intermission screen, just a background. I mean, what the hell was The Chasem doing in the middle of Hell? Or The Abandoned Mines? Hell, why was the release switch for the shuttle in the middle of "O of destruction". It just made Doom 2 feel like a collection of levels instead of an actual location.

If you want my honest opinion, I would have switched around The Casem and O of destruction, and also Abandoned Mines and Inmost Dens.

Are there any megawads that have theme consistancy?

[duncan]

AlexMax said:

If you want my honest opinion, I would have switched around The Casem and O of destruction, and also Abandoned Mines and Inmost Dens.

Are there any megawads that have theme consistancy?

Heh, I would've just taken the chasm right out of there anyway. ugly thing it is.

[Mogul]

I thinkI agree that larger wads need a theme. It should be developed on, of course, but the theme probably should be there.

In DOOM II's release era, such things were not expected -- but things have evolved. Game design is more "sophisticated" sometimes, and the theme issue is considered more important today than it was back then, apparently.

[JamesEightBitStar]

*shrug* I personally thought Doom II was rather consistent with it's themes. Each intermission gave you a clear idea of where you were and why, and the levels all did a good job of conveying the themes. I actually felt like I was starting on Earth and gradually progressing into hell. There were only a few oddities IMO, such as "Dead Simple" (which was just a blast-fest).

[Linguica]

AlexMax said:

Are there any megawads that have theme consistancy?

STRAIN

[duncan]

JamesEightBitStar said:

*shrug* I personally thought Doom II was rather consistent with it's themes. Each intermission gave you a clear idea of where you were and why, and the levels all did a good job of conveying the themes. I actually felt like I was starting on Earth and gradually progressing into hell. There were only a few oddities IMO, such as "Dead Simple" (which was just a blast-fest).

waht about dead simple straight on from the spirit world and maps 2 to 4-- a tech style map then a rocky style map then back to tech again!? there was definitely something up with the order

[ellmo]

Erp said:

You run, shoot, and blow things up. You kill and enjoy the bloody parts flying everywhere.

Hm, I really think duncan was talking about maps.

This is indeed a starnge thing. Doom had a consisten theme. There's no point in arguing on that. E1-Techy, E2-not so techy, E3-helly, E4-helly. Despite the fact that those maps were made by different people (aside from E1, AFAIK), they still have - what we call - themes. Doom 2 did not. That's one of the most important things I hated about D2.

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