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Cyb

Doomworld Does Doom 3

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Amaster said:

Stamina bar doesnt drain while it's active.


There's a stamina bar? Is that that flashing shiznit at the bottom of the screen just under the health and armor?

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DoomGater said:

@Rockn-Roll:
Did U ever play TNT/Plutonia or the Masterlevels on UV or Nightmare?
THATs the Doom we love! Doom3 is fine,ok, but it seems not to be a true successor to the classic doom experience.

I don't really consider TNT/Plutonia/Masters as "the" "classic" doom experience.

doom ok, doom2, maybe ...

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Rockn-Roll said:
I see no flaws in Doom3.

My word, that's gotta be the biggest Doom 3 fanboy I ever saw. And I thought I was bad.

I see a few small flaws:
- Shotgun is worthless or rather inefficient at anything but very close range. I'd have hoped it was capable of at least killing imps with one blast at medium-to-short range (something like five feet away). Really removes a great part of the "oomph" factor the original had (otherwise it's perfect).

- Former human enemies gib way too easily.

- Demons burn away too quickly. I don't mind that their bodies burn away, but for the love of Doom, at least give us a few seconds to enjoy the ragdoll physics properly!

- Not enough variation in level themes. Too many tech areas and not enough caverns/Hell/semi-Hell/outdoors scenarios.

Uh...it's one big scare fest with a huge story and many different variations on that story. I'm now playing it on Nightmare with only 25 health and no health packs available (mounted units are still available) and just one of those creepy imps (makes the original imps as tame as a lap dog) raises my shackles...and there are areas where several teleport in. Did you play it on Veteran or one of the whimpy skill levels?

The scares do end up getting old. I could've used a few more "monsters-bashing-down-doors" situations instead of those constant teleportation/hidden closet traps.

Holy crap! You must have typed doom95 in the Doom3 console. You didn't say anything about the heat waves from flames and the energy balls thrown by the monsters, nor did I read anything about the awesome shock waves created by the grenades. You mentioned something about the game engine. But, the story was awesome. The PDA's being used to guide the marine toward the objective was awesome, but you skipped most of them. Did you go to MartianBuddy.com? It was awesome how they made the game linked to reality! The weapons were balanced to the T. The maps were awesome with loads of detail, and it wasn't just textures of equipment drawn on a wall...things like pipes, computers, etc. actually were real objects. The maps were also complex in a 3 dimensional way. In fact, you could skip whole sections of maps by descending to a lower walkway (you probably didn't notice that cause you were too busy trying to survive). You indicated what you thought was lacking, but you didn't say what you expected! Doom3 is a single marine that has to be the hero. Doom3 has everything and more for the player to have that experience. I see nothing more that can be added to Doom3 to improve it. Obviously you could change it into something you want...perhaps a role playing game...did you want to upgrade your health so you can survive longer? Did you want the stupidity of carrying some items around while trying to figure out what to do with them?

Doom 3 has a few nice touches that other FPSs don't have such as the ones you mentioned, but that aside, the core gameplay remains the same: you run about in a fairly non-interactive world and shoot stuff. There are no highly interactive ways to use the environments in ways that could allow you to set traps for your enemies (in sp at least you can't) - the GUI interface had potential, sadly, it wasn't exploited, so what you're left with is the usual "press switch to activate something in the level" instead of something slightly more innovative.

The game is awesome in its simplicity, but to infer that it is "an innovative FPS" is stretching it a bit.

As a marine you dissapoint me. I would expect better game skills from someone at DoomWorld. I have to go now...before I rant some more. id again leaped decades ahead of everyone else with Doom3. None of the other games I've played or seen compare. I expect Half-Life2 to be boring in comparison. FarCry is like some childish console game compared to Doom3.

Did the review suggest anything about Cyb's skills? Enlighten me, 'cause I sure didn't find any hints that Cyb's gaming skills are inferior in any way. I suggest you quit attacking Cyb - he did an imo better review than just about any other review I've read out there; it wasn't whiny, didn't rate the game ridiculously high like some reviews do and seemed positive enough.

If ya gotta bash a reviewer for "peeing on your beloved Doom 3", find the guy responsible for that shitty gamespot review - didn't mind his rating as much, but I hated his retarded complaints. Go and kick his ass instead :-P

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kristus said:

There's a stamina bar? Is that that flashing shiznit at the bottom of the screen just under the health and armor?

Heh, yes. It allows you to run (shift key by default)

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The Hell maps are among the best level design I have seen in an FPS and a very welcome change after traipsing through all the tech base maps

The Mars base levels don't provide much variety, but on the other hand, the Hell levels tend to produce the opposite effect. Every room and cavern looks very different. Although each of them features excellent design, putting them all together fails to create any atmosphere. IMO they lack some sort of unity.

I don't know why, but I was somewhat disappointed by the hellish "theme". To me it looked quite kitsch. Then again maybe my hopes were too high. Oh well...

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what the hell did you expect from id? i mean.. this game literally blows anything on the market away.. by a long shot.

the "doom feel" is definitely there.. and the potential for player made mods and ******* is astounding..

most of you whining hicks will bite your tongue in a month or so..

"OMG LOL ROFL LMFAO" .... nerds.

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Cyb: Not a bad review. I understand why you wouldn't SPECIFICALLY mention certain features (potential spoilers), but you could at least mention them indirectly. There are so many features that you neglected to discuss..

I'm more than halfway through the game now. I started on Hard difficulty. For me, DOOM3 has so far been an almost perfect experience, perhaps because I've prepared for it for so long that I planned out exactly HOW I would play it. So far, I've always made sure to play the game in the dark and with the sound turned up so loud that the gunshots sound as loud as in real life. I also make sure not to quicksave too often, even if I'm scared shitless and/or about to die. Trust me, when you get damaged to 10 health, forget about the ability to save (it's hard to resist, I know) and then come across a section where all this fucked-up shit starts, you WILL get scared. Man, I swear, some of those whispers just sound.. wrong. I think I could make out some latin/hebrew phrases. Nothing pleasant, either...

I have 5.1 speakers with subwoofers, plus a good pair of headphones. I use both interchangeably, headphones at night, speakers during the day. I firmly believe music/sound matter A LOT in DOOM3. This might sound strange, but I try to ignore the background music so that it has a chance to work its magic on me on a subconscious level - I think that's ID software's intent here.

It helps to have some 1337 aiming and strafing skills. It helps even more to maintain an escape route... Unlike DOOM2, this isn't run and gun.

Those of you with unsteady heart conditions, please be careful; this game (is the only game that) literally made me skip heart beats. :D

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Mogul said:

Cyb, I was just writing to remind you --


GET TO WORK ON HUB2!!!!!!

:P


If you're talking about RTC, then cyb has nothing to do with hub2 :P

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Amaster said:

I've found quite a few secrets on my second trip through the game. There's lots of places that seem like they dont go anywhere, or seem impossible to reach, which contain lots of goodies.


Uhm...I'm not talking about the open spaces. In one place...Delta Labs I believe...a button is in a hidden location. Pressing it opens a wall panel for some stuff. Further on in a tower area a wall panel opens as you walk past a demon trigger area...the first time through it's not as noticeable due to the demon making things difficult, but if you dispense the demon quickly you can hear the wall shut again. Reminiscent of the original Doom series, especially Doom2. I think Romero should have been called in for consultation on some more of that stuff...I think many of the secrets in Doom2 like that were his doing. Anyway the wall panel in the tower allows access to an area which can actually be seen from the stairs while climbing the tower.

And, of course there is the id button which opens an area containing a PDA with emails from everyone at id.

DoomGater said:

@Rockn-Roll:
Did U ever play TNT/Plutonia or the Masterlevels on UV or Nightmare?
THATs the Doom we love! Doom3 is fine,ok, but it seems not to be a true successor to the classic doom experience.


Yes. But, I don't really like Nightmare in the original series. I think the enemy respawns too quickly for me. Part of my experience is checking out the neat areas in the maps, I can't do that on Nightmare...not without the ammo respawning as well, fists just don't work well against someone with pistols, shotguns, machine guns, etc. According to id the Doom that we loved is not the game they intended it to be. Original Doom was supposed to be freightening, was supposed to be like Doom3.

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rofl. I have no idea how I should respond to all that crazy fanboyism, so I just won't.

Just let me say that an 8/10 is a good score, so I have no friggin idea where you get the idea that I didn't like the game.

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""""Trust me, when you get damaged to 10 health, forget about the ability to save (it's hard to resist, I know) and then come across a section where all this fucked-up shit starts""""

virgil, why would u SAVE with 10h? thats when it would be hard to resist quick loading =P , not quick saving.

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When a game like spongebob square pants is getting perfect reviews out there from credible reviewers, a score of 8/10 for doom3 is rather subpar in my opinion :P

your computer must be a pile.

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A fair review IMO. Although, I think perhaps I am slightly less impressed with the overall playing experience of the game than Cyb.

I pretty much agree with almost all the detracting things that people have raised in this and other threads. It is still a good game and an exceptional engine however. Now that I have downloaded a few minor mods and applied a few tweaks myself, I'm also having a lot of fun playing the game through for the fourth time.

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Ok, I beat it on hard. I'm playing it on nightmare right now. You guys should try nightmare - one little pounce from an imp and you die... >:D

Why didn't anyone mention the rag-doll physics? They're awesome. Shoot the rocket launcher at someone's feet to get a taste...

Is ID software going to think about making a DOOM2 remake, perhaps with the same engine? If not, is anyone here planning to form a team to undertake this?

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Virgil said:

Is ID software going to think about making a DOOM2 remake, perhaps with the same engine? If not, is anyone here planning to form a team to undertake this?



Id are working on a complety new game. An expansion pack is in the works (at an external developer) but no details have been released as yet.

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Thanks for the response with more than one sentence.

dsm said:

My word, that's gotta be the biggest Doom 3 fanboy I ever saw. And I thought I was bad.

Actually, everything id delivers seems to stimulate me. :)

I see a few small flaws:
- Shotgun is worthless or rather inefficient at anything but very close range. I'd have hoped it was capable of at least killing imps with one blast at medium-to-short range (something like five feet away). Really removes a great part of the "oomph" factor the original had (otherwise it's perfect).

- Former human enemies gib way too easily.

Thanks for placing these two together. You condemn the shotgun for not being powerful, then condemn it for being too powerful. No, don't get heated up...I see your point, the imps have more health than a soul drained human, and you would have liked the humans to have more health so you couldn't waste them easier. Try using the pistol on the soul drained humans, otherwise that ammo is worthless AFAIAC. Flaw for including some low health monsters for a low damage weapon? No. Personally, I think there's way too much ammo in the game, and everyone forgets to use the pistol. That's one reason for using a flashlight...when you see a monster, decide which weapon to use instead of just pressing the flashlight again to get the last weapon. Perhaps this is where id is ranting that there is no player innovation!

- Demons burn away too quickly. I don't mind that their bodies burn away, but for the love of Doom, at least give us a few seconds to enjoy the ragdoll physics properly!

Hmm, neat like have them hit the floor first? Yeah, I like that idea. Flaw? No.

- Not enough variation in level themes. Too many tech areas and not enough caverns/Hell/semi-Hell/outdoors scenarios.

Yes, everyone wants more. id delivers a huge long game (compared to some other releases) in which no body seems to be able to remember every level well enough to completely distinguish them from each other. And that's a flaw? I want more, but I don't consider that a flaw man...that's a great flawless game! Toddh was initially opposed to Doom3, but with everyone saying that the main flaw was that there wasn't enough then I'm sure he's toasting id development with champagne and...er...other stuff. Ravensoft is already developing Quake4, so I expect another development team to head up the next Doom3 episode with a healthy licensing fee to Toddh.

The scares do end up getting old. I could've used a few more "monsters-bashing-down-doors" situations instead of those constant teleportation/hidden closet traps.

Yeah, more...more...more. I agree. You are making Toddh seem like an uber marketing FNG for thinking of doing a project other than Doom3.

Doom 3 has a few nice touches that other FPSs don't have such as the ones you mentioned, but that aside, the core gameplay remains the same: you run about in a fairly non-interactive world and shoot stuff. There are no highly interactive ways to use the environments in ways that could allow you to set traps for your enemies (in sp at least you can't) - the GUI interface had potential, sadly, it wasn't exploited, so what you're left with is the usual "press switch to activate something in the level" instead of something slightly more innovative.

True, id did not have John Romero's genius to draw from to design better traps...sad, very sad. But, flaw? No.

The game is awesome in its simplicity, but to infer that it is "an innovative FPS" is stretching it a bit.

I think you want to see something other than an FPS then. I believe the most important part of an FPS is for the player to have a first person perspective and for the player to have weapons to shoot stuff, and if it's beyond what every other FPS game delivered then it is innovation. I think seperating the game engine is a bit harsh. No game that I've seen has heat waves from flame and energy fire. No game that I've seen has grenades which create shock waves. In those fields Doom3 is innovative. There's also Swan's guard who can't be killed, he has an innovative arm. I think there are a lot more innovations, but I think the game is too long for us to remember them all.

Did the review suggest anything about Cyb's skills? Enlighten me, 'cause I sure didn't find any hints that Cyb's gaming skills are inferior in any way. I suggest you quit attacking Cyb - he did an imo better review than just about any other review I've read out there; it wasn't whiny, didn't rate the game ridiculously high like some reviews do and seemed positive enough.

In order for an FPS to be innovative, the player has to be innovative. There were many different ways to transverse nearly every level. A player with skills could have found many of the areas exciting and innovative. Doom3 on Nightmare is one hell of a heart pumping, adrinaline flushing, head banging experience. Even on Veteran I found myself getting flush at least once a minute. On the lower levels like marine and geez, I don't even recall what the lowest skill level is...heh...just walk around and shoot stuff. I'm sure the imps just walk forward slowly all the time and throw fire balls once when they see you, and then like every 5 steps or so, and only crouch and spring at you if it was scripted...LOL, a game like that would suck! On Nightmare if you back up from the imps too far they will crouch and spring, on Nightmare the imps don't walk much...the most I've seen is like maybe 5% of the time. But, then again they don't get much of a chance to walk cause I'm in their face with a shotgun and mostly all they do is throw fire balls or tear at me with their claws. There's also Swan's guard near the end...I mean that guy is incredible...innovative...nearly impossible to kill, well can't be killed actually, cause he keeps coming back! I don't know...maybe on the lower levels the dude isn't there, or something cause I don't hear too many people talk about him.

If ya gotta bash a reviewer for "peeing on your beloved Doom 3", find the guy responsible for that shitty gamespot review - didn't mind his rating as much, but I hated his retarded complaints. Go and kick his ass instead :-P [/B]

Well said. Yeah, I actually think I do have a gamespot forum membership that I can use. Or, perhaps I'll jump back into some Doom3 Nightmare. I've only just made it past the EnPro facility and have entered communications...I'm about to send, or not send, the distress signal.

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Cyb said:

rofl. I have no idea how I should respond to all that crazy fanboyism, so I just won't.

Just let me say that an 8/10 is a good score, so I have no friggin idea where you get the idea that I didn't like the game.

Sorry, perhaps I was too harsh on you...I really don't mean to be personal, but Doom3 blows my mind man. I just would have liked to see more adjectives and adverbs describing the most important innovations. It did seem like you thought the game was OK, but I have no idea how anybody that is a doom fan could find Doom3 anything but awesome.

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Oh geez, it looks like someone changed me from a fan boy to "Obviously someone being paid to talk about how incredible Doom 3 is". Now I get your earlier comment. LOL! I wish man. I also wish that I was paid for the review I gave of Quake2 Mission Pack 2: Ground Zero If you check around you will see that I'm an independent who launched a web site called Quake2 League in Oct 97 and moved the database portion to Gamespy, played guitar along with CTF and TeamFortress for Quake on MPlayer for like a year, ran a successful semi-automated Quake2 deathmatch tournament from a 33.6K modem using a map I created, a whole lot of other stuff. But, I've never ever gotten paid...uh...directly for any of that, except an invite from gamespy for their seaonal lan party. I did do a game related website for Intel which I got paid for, and did some in-house game testing for Nintendo, but other than that I haven't received any money from the gaming industry.

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How'd you like working in nintendo. is that place bland or what!? (slightly joking)

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Youn said:

How'd you like working in nintendo. is that place bland or what!? (slightly joking)


Eh...most of what they produce really only appeals to people who have not yet reached puberty. But, it's kinda fun to come into work and play all day & get paid for it. They do force you to take a 15 minute break in the morning and after noon, & an hour for lunch. I worked on the game Animal Crossing. I think one of the worst aspects of the games they produce is that the developers are all japanese, and everything they make has to be translated, then edited for whacky sayings...some very unusual word combinations come across. But, when bugs are found in alpha testing they are fixed in just a couple of days.

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Rockn-Roll, quit putting words in my mouth. You obviosuly understood nada of what I said (or you twisted my words and made up a few things of your own to fit your own ends).

Let's look at your bullshit:

Rockn-Roll said:
Thanks for placing these two together. You condemn the shotgun for not being powerful, then condemn it for being too powerful.

Please tell me where I said I condemned it for being too powerful. I scrutinized my own post very damn carefully, but I sure didn't find anything in it that could remotely suggest that I condemned the shotgun for being too powerful.
I also did not condemn it for being too weak, merely for working too much like the Doom 2 db shotgun: spreading out the shot too far and being inefficient at anything but extremely close range - that is not the way the classic Doom sb shotgun works and that's why I'm disappointed.

No, don't get heated up...I see your point, the imps have more health than a soul drained human, and you would have liked the humans to have more health so you couldn't waste them easier. Try using the pistol on the soul drained humans, otherwise that ammo is worthless AFAIAC. Flaw for including some low health monsters for a low damage weapon?

You clearly did not see my point. There's nothing wrong with the health points of either enemy. Former humans go splat, demons don't - no problem there. The problem is that it takes about two fucking pistol shots at an already dead corpse to gib it! if it took five pistol shots to gib an enemy after it's dead, I wouldn't complain, but the fact that every time I blast a zombie with the shotgun at close range, I get to see the thing turn into a skeleton and its meat flies off it, instead of seeing an awesome death animation of the zombie being thrown a couple feet back by the blast making use of the awesome ragdoll physics which not only would've been up to par with classic Doom's awesome combat feel, but it would've been ten times cooler to look at.
The damage the shotgun is capable of dealing is spot on, the exaggerated "gibbability" of the former humans isn't.

And I agree that there's too much ammo lying around - fewer clips and shells would've been in order.

Hmm, neat like have them hit the floor first? Yeah, I like that idea. Flaw? No.

It's a flaw all right - a wrong decision. The game can handle several zombie corpses lying around for ages, but apparently not some demon corpses that just lie about for two seconds before vanishing? I don't buy that. The game would've been able to handle a few demon corpses laying about for merely a second. Of that I'm convinced, but apparently, Id didn't want us to enjoy the ragdoll physics as much as was possible.
I've played other games where you really get to enjoy the well-crafted death animations and it adds so much to the game. Leaving Doom 3 weak in this spot is rather dumb if you ask me, that's why I regard it as a flaw.

Yes, everyone wants more. id delivers a huge long game (compared to some other releases) in which no body seems to be able to remember every level well enough to completely distinguish them from each other. And that's a flaw? I want more, but I don't consider that a flaw man...that's a great flawless game! Toddh was initially opposed to Doom3, but with everyone saying that the main flaw was that there wasn't enough then I'm sure he's toasting id development with champagne and...er...other stuff. Ravensoft is already developing Quake4, so I expect another development team to head up the next Doom3 episode with a healthy licensing fee to Toddh.

While I agree that Doom 3 is both long and long enough, the theme varies very little. The colouring is mostly the same and even though textures have different colours, you don't notice it because there are always lots of other grey textures. The grey texturing combined with the almost present darkness gives an overall non-varied impression on people. They could have prevented this by having more Mars caverns, more Hell an perhaps having you spend more time outdoors in some instances.

True, id did not have John Romero's genius to draw from to design better traps...sad, very sad. But, flaw? No.

You say that once too often. Elaborate please. Why is it not a flaw? I'll tell you something: Everything that brings a sour taste into your mouth during an otherwise excellent game can be considered a flaw, because it reduces the overall enjoyment of the game. So it's a flaw all right.

I think you want to see something other than an FPS then. I believe the most important part of an FPS is for the player to have a first person perspective and for the player to have weapons to shoot stuff, and if it's beyond what every other FPS game delivered then it is innovation. I think seperating the game engine is a bit harsh. No game that I've seen has heat waves from flame and energy fire. No game that I've seen has grenades which create shock waves. In those fields Doom3 is innovative. There's also Swan's guard who can't be killed, he has an innovative arm. I think there are a lot more innovations, but I think the game is too long for us to remember them all.

I'm talking gameplay innovations you dolt. Like, allowing the player to do something he hasn't done in previous FPSs. The GUI system could have been the gateway for something really innovative as it would've allowed for some mission objectives that were more than "find computer X and press some button on the screen".
I mean, they could've made it so that you had to activate a certain sequential set of functions on a computer and you had to do it in certain order. This wouldn't have removed the FPS aspect of the game - it'd just have made the mission objectives more involving and interesting (without necessarily making them into complicated puzzles - just requiring you to pay a little bit of attention).

In order for an FPS to be innovative, the player has to be innovative. There were many different ways to transverse nearly every level. A player with skills could have found many of the areas exciting and innovative. Doom3 on Nightmare is one hell of a heart pumping, adrinaline flushing, head banging experience. Even on Veteran I found myself getting flush at least once a minute. On the lower levels like marine and geez, I don't even recall what the lowest skill level is...heh...just walk around and shoot stuff. I'm sure the imps just walk forward slowly all the time and throw fire balls once when they see you, and then like every 5 steps or so, and only crouch and spring at you if it was scripted...LOL, a game like that would suck! On Nightmare if you back up from the imps too far they will crouch and spring, on Nightmare the imps don't walk much...the most I've seen is like maybe 5% of the time. But, then again they don't get much of a chance to walk cause I'm in their face with a shotgun and mostly all they do is throw fire balls or tear at me with their claws. There's also Swan's guard near the end...I mean that guy is incredible...innovative...nearly impossible to kill, well can't be killed actually, cause he keeps coming back! I don't know...maybe on the lower levels the dude isn't there, or something cause I don't hear too many people talk about him.

I get the impression that you either don't know what innovation means or you simply haven't played other games than Id games - which I can't decide really.

If you had broken down now and admitted that Doom 3 has at least a few flaws just like every other game, including the classic Doom games, I would pay you more respect. Instead I see that I'm once again to be disappointed.
Just enjoy the damn game for what it is to you.

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dsm said:

It's a flaw all right - a wrong decision. The game can handle several zombie corpses lying around for ages, but apparently not some demon corpses that just lie about for two seconds before vanishing?

One thing I found after playing with the ungibbable mods on my second time through, is that the relatively low poly models of the demon enemies are more apparent when they are stationary (obviously). Whereas humans and zombies seem quite smooth and rounded, even the fairly rotund pinky has quite a lot of jagged polys on show when lying still.

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Doom 3 would of been better if John Romero and the rest of the oringinal Doom team got involved.

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I think the ragdoll physics have been toned down because they fuck up a lot, especially on doors.

I've seen an imp vibrate up and down in a door it's tried to jump through, a zombie dragged around by a door it's died near. A zombie land perfectly on it's head!

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Szymanski said:

I think the ragdoll physics have been toned down because they fuck up a lot, especially on doors.

I've seen an imp vibrate up and down in a door it's tried to jump through, a zombie dragged around by a door it's died near. A zombie land perfectly on it's head!

I gotta admit that the ragdoll physics are far from perfect, but I really don't care in those minor discrepencies.

The ragdoll physics still enable monsters to flinch according to where you hit them (that looks like a gameplay innovation btw - one of the extremely few that D3 has - unless another game has it?) and enable them to get thrown around from a powerful blast or shockwave, hence it's still cool (but not more cool than any other game that uses physics in this way).

Gameplaywise, the physics work as they should. Uh.."believability-wise" they don't and that is of course another flaw that Doom 3 has (albeit imo a rather insignificant one).

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dsm said:

The ragdoll physics still enable monsters to flinch according to where you hit them (that looks like a gameplay innovation btw - one of the extremely few that D3 has - unless another game has it?)

Far Cry has this. One thing which Doom3 has done better than any other game though, is adjusting a character's feet and legs to the surface he is standing on. Put pm_thirdperson to 1, and then go and stand on an uneven surface; you'll never see any floating feet. Even right on the edge of a platform, doomguy's leg will hang off to adjust.

I definitely agree about the physics problems being fairly inconsequential though - apart from the riotous spasms a corpse will occasionally indulge in, they do what they are needed to do fine.

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A very nice review. Touching on the ups and downs of the game. I would expect nothing less from Doomworld ;)

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