Is it hard to use Doomsday?

[TwinBeast]

My opinion is that it is the easiest engine to use. The kickstart is a very clear launcher program and the documentation for the engine is good.

But what do you think? If it's hard to use, why it is hard?

[Amaster]

I dont think it's hard to use. But some other ports are just easier. The directory structure that JDoom uses is a little weird compared to other ports where there's just a main directory, and you can just drag and drop your files (or use a shortcut if you prefer), rather than setting things up in the launcher.

But no, it's not hard to use, in my opinion.

[Graf Zahl]

Amaster said:

The directory structure that JDoom uses is a little weird compared to other ports where there's just a main directory, and you can just drag and drop your files (or use a shortcut if you prefer), rather than setting things up in the launcher.

That's the problem for less experienced users. Many users which never had any experience with DOS or other older OS's are completely lost when it comes to complex directory structures. Modern software normally has an installer which keeps the user from bothering with this stuff but for installing any more complex Doomsday mod you need at least some very basic knowledge how to deal with subdirectories.


And yes, I prefer the approach of other engines like ZDoom where you can put all your stuff in one WAD and then be able to drag&drop it on ZDoom.exe or start it directly from a command line. It may be a little harder for a developer but for the end user it's much simpler because he doesn't have to bother with multiple files or directories.

[DaniJ]

Thing is though, Doomsday IS more complicated than Zdoom (being engine + games likens it more to an emulator) but no more so than any other modern game.

The directory stucture isn't complicated IMO.
\Bin - all the engine stuff (leave it alone)
\Data - data like graphics/sound/music etc
\Defs - all the definitions (no need to mess with these unless you know what your doing)
\kicksprofiles - all the addon profiles (leave it alone)
\Run - the runtime folder (leave it alone)

Why do you need to know the directory structure?
Most jDoom mods are distributed as a zip which have all the paths for all the files included for you. Plus 99% of the time everything is packaged into pk3 so all you have in your zip is a readme, a PK3 and a KSA profile. All the user has to do is extract it to the Doomsday base directory and run jDoom including that PK3. To save new users from the headaches involved with selecting the PK3 in KickStart (it's sooo complicated after all) most authors also include a KSA profile so that the addon appears with a little tick box in KickStart.

PK3 is quite simply just a more advanced sollution than WAD but I think people throw a wobbly when they see one, it's not like they're a new concept.

As this weeks /newstuff has shown the problem isn't the directory structure (which is very logical IMO) the problem is people who spend most of their time with Zdoom think of jDoom in the way they would use Zdoom. Now because they don't know anything about how Doomsday works under the surface, naturally they'll throw their arms up and give up if something doesn't work as it should do (rightly so, you can't blame casual users for their lack of knowledge).

What it does mean though is that in order to prevent this perpetuated nonsense of Doomsday being difficult to use and mod for the users who do know how it all fits together and why it is so, should be more careful when distributing mods for it. I'm not aiming that squarely at you Jimi cos I have been guilty of the same thing myself.

Just recently there seems to be more and more people using jDoom and have started creating mods and addons exclusively for use with jDoom. Which is great. Us advanced users need to help the process along though by doing things the right way (as people might look at our work as indicative of how things should be done).

Anyway... to end a long boring post:

IMO Doomsday isn't complicated if you take the time to understand a few simple rules, it's different to all other sourceports yes but not as complicated as some make it out to be.

[Graf Zahl]

DaniJ said:

As this weeks /newstuff has shown the problem isn't the directory structure (which is very logical IMO) the problem is people who spend most of their time with Zdoom think of jDoom in the way they would use Zdoom. Now because they don't know anything about how Doomsday works under the surface, naturally they'll throw their arms up and give up if something doesn't work as it should do (rightly so, you can't blame casual users for their lack of knowledge).

But that's exactly what the average Joe will do. He doesn't want to familiarize himself with stuff like that and gives up. It's really surprising how clueless even intelligent people can be (and if you've worked in the game development industry you will most likely have experienced it first hand) and let's face it: Due to its visuals JDoom will mostly attract those who haven't been into computers for a longer time.

What it does mean though is that in order to prevent this perpetuated nonsense of Doomsday being difficult to use and mod for the users who do know how it all fits together and why it is so, should be more careful when distributing mods for it. I'm not aiming that squarely at you Jimi cos I have been guilty of the same thing myself.

That's a logical conclusion. But it still remains a fact that it is quite error-prone if even the experts have to be careful not to mess up their mod's distribution.

Anyway... to end a long boring post:

IMO Doomsday isn't complicated if you take the time to understand a few simple rules, it's different to all other sourceports yes but not as complicated as some make it out to be.

One simple rule: The risk of incorrect use rises exponentially with the amount of files and directories that are required for successful installation. That is, even in a simple case with one PK3 file and one Kickstart profile in a subdirectory there is a good chance that some user will do it wrong and doesn't work.

[DaniJ]

One simple rule: The risk of incorrect use rises exponentially with the amount of files and directories that are required for successful installation. That is, even in a simple case with one PK3 file and one Kickstart profile in a subdirectory there is a good chance that some user will do it wrong and doesn't work.

Well, yeah but surely it's not difficult as long as the pack is distributed with the correct internal paths. I agree with the comments about directory structure but that is only valid for users modding for jDoom, casual users shouldn't need to worry about how it works as long as it does.

Skyjake is working on a new format for addons that removes the problems of the virtual path stucture and combines the functionality of KSA profiles into a single file for distribution. Which should alleviate any such problems people are having with coping with two files to distribute instead of one (bare in mind you don't need to use KickStart, you can quite easily just use -file myaddon.pk3) however there are certain commandline options that need to be envoked for different addons. That is currently partly what the KSA's are for. So for instance if your mod requires the -pwadtex option it should be added to the command line options within the KSA profile.

Take for example a Doom3 mod, you have one file to distribute, an archive containing shed loads of different data and definition files that all have to have the correct virtual directory structure in order to function correctly. Which is the exact same method used by 90% of modern games and indeed Doomsday.

Yes it is error prone but it's down to the mod makers to get it right, casual users shouldn't be expected to learn how to fix problems.

The Doomsday setup is just as complicated as Doom3 but likewise it is infintely more flexible than the portX + WAD setup.