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RamboBones

Why doesn't chainsaw/fist work on cyberdemon

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I figure the cyberdemon is one pretty big ass guy, yet it is almost impossible to hit him with the chainsaw or the fist. I'm assuming this is something to do with the collission system in doom but i don't really know. Can anybody shed some light on this?

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I think it might have to do with radiusses. I imagine things you wanna saw/punch have to be pretty close to get hit, and with the cyberdemon being big and all, you might not be able to get close enough or something. I dunno.

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The collision is calculated with a diagonal line through the monster and the radius is larger than the range of the weapon so the weapon simply doesn't connect most of the time. You can use ZDoom which fixes this bug and which even allows punching/sawing Spiderdemons (great fun in god mode :D )

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Graf Zahl said:

You can use ZDoom which fixes this bug

Most importantly, MAP07 Tyson becomes humanly playable (as it should be) :P

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It is actually possible to chainsaw a Cyber. There's a spot at the start of Hell Revealed map18 where you can do it fairly easy if you get the timing right.

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Ive killed the Cyberdemon quite easily in Doom 64 with God mode on and the chainsaw.The only enemy that I have a hard time hitting with the chainsaw or fist is the Aracnotron or the Spiderdemon.

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i killed the cyberdemon on map 32 of doom2 once with berserk only(no god mode)... man that was fun. ;)

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It's possibly also worth pointing out that the word "radius" implies something round and Doom items are actually square when viewed from above.

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Yeah, most items are square, the cyberdemon isnt really within the Chainsaws range at all sides.

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Ninja_of_DooM said:

Do you even know anything about doom editing? What you said didn't make any sense.


You may want to research Graf Zahl's posts around all these forums before you even think of saying that. He knows more about how the DooM and ZDooM engines work than any of us know now or will ever know.

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O sorry, im not an editor so i wouldent know.

But I was not mentioning anything about editing. I only said that the cyberdemon does not have the same radius on all sides, so you can't connect with the chainsaw on him on ALL the angles, like a few of us said already.

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Inferno said:

O sorry, im not an editor so i wouldent know.

But I was not mentioning anything about editing. I only said that the cyberdemon does not have the same radius on all sides, so you can't connect with the chainsaw on him on ALL the angles, like a few of us said already.


That has nothing to do with the radius. It is caused by a very bad method to calculate the collision.

To speed things up Doom only checks whether there is a collision with one of the diagonals through the monster. In certain situations it even uses the diagonal that is further away! For other hitscan weapons like the pistol or shotgun this doesn't matter because the trace will pass through the monster. But for the chainsaw it is different because it only has a very short range. So depending on the angle you attack it from you may get lucky and connect or more likely you won't. If you want to see how it should work I really recommend to check this out with ZDoom which is doing these calculations correctly. The difference is utterly staggering.

And to make matters worse there is another bug in Doom which may cause a trace to miss completely even though it passes right through the monster. This bug has been fixed as well in ZDoom.

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This is very intresting, when I get some time I should check this out with ZDoom, I have to download it since the one I had before was not operating correctly but I'll get to that later.

As for the one bug for a trace to miss, is that with all weapons at any range?? I think i've experienced this before with a cyberdemon with god mode on (I was bored and was just fooling around), and at point blank with the shotgun it went right between his legs!!

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Inferno said:

As for the one bug for a trace to miss, is that with all weapons at any range?? I think i've experienced this before with a cyberdemon with god mode on (I was bored and was just fooling around), and at point blank with the shotgun it went right between his legs!!



Yes, that's with all hitscan weapons at any range, most interestinly though with the BFG against the Spiderdemon. Depending on the position it can easily happen that half of the BFG's secondary attack's traces miss. As a result of this being fixed it is quite easy to kill a Spider with one BFG blast in ZDoom (admittedly it's the only negative side effect of this fix but I can live with that. The positive effects are much more important.)

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Yes almost all the time I notice that the flash doesen't effect the mastermind, because like you said it would normally kill it in one shot. Really wanna compare with ZDoom now.

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IIRC, the bugs which cause a hitscan weapon to miss and what cause the BFG traces to miss are both caused by the monsters' radii being larger than the BLOCKMAP regions surrounding it, or by the monster lapping over more than one BLOCKMAP region at a time. Graf Zahl, maybe you can clarify this?

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Darkhaven said:

IIRC, the bugs which cause a hitscan weapon to miss and what cause the BFG traces to miss are both caused by the monsters' radii being larger than the BLOCKMAP regions surrounding it, or by the monster lapping over more than one BLOCKMAP region at a time. Graf Zahl, maybe you can clarify this?


Yes, that's exactly this bug. Just follow Bloodshedder's link to find a great article about it.
The chainsaw issue with the Cyberdemon and other large monsters is something else though.

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You may want to research Graf Zahl's posts around all these forums before you even think of saying that. He knows more about how the DooM and ZDooM engines work than any of us know now or will ever know.

Heh, if you had even bothered to think you would have realised I was directing my post at Inferno and not Graf. I know that Graf knows a lot about the way the stuff works, i've been in the doom community since 2002. I myself have done a lot of editing so I know about things being square.(Just check my profile, you'll be gobsmacked)
BTW, this post was not meant to sound like a flame or rant, just pointing it out.:p

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