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Cyb

ZDaemon Tourney 2004

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No it's not a(nother) new mod hoping to emulate UT or one of its spawn. It's an online Doom tournament using ZDaemon! Uh, all slots are currently filled, but you can still watch demos and maybe spectate if that's your thing. Winners will get some fabulous prizes, and everyone will go home happy. Except the losers. Because they lost. Oh yeah apparently Clan OS is hosting, so woo.

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"...all four of these maps have been played professionally since 1996, and the tournament directors believe it is best to keep classic play the main orientation here, because this is a serious event."

Dwango5.
Half the wads are Dwango5.

Classic play? Noooo no no, non-classic play would be CTF or someother mode.
Using ancient maps IMHO is not "classic" play.

I like the idea of the tournament dont get me wrong, but Dwango?

Jesus H. Christ...

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The reason for those maps being labeled as "classic" is because they are well known, balanced and have been played extensively by the best players. This all has lead to that tactics, movement patterns etc have been perfected over the years.

Consider what it would be like if a tennis game would be played on an overgrown hill or something similar, it just wouldn't be the same...

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So what? Why refuse any other wads or maps? Simply because other maps or not ones that everyone and their dog has played to death? And know every nook and crany of?

Utter nonsense.

It just saddeneds me to know that there are tons of good quality maps out there that will never get play played because they have a hardon for the "good ol' days".

Let it go people.

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I agree with Erik, and personally play most of the time on well-known maps. Playing on the same maps over and over through the years is what gives the game its sportsmanship. This doesn't mean that some fad-like maps won't be played for a while, or occasionally, and that some newer maps won't become rather classic in themselves in the long run, but it'd pretty crappy if we didn't have a relatively stable repertoire of DM maps where games can be measured. And that won't happen, unless the game dies altogether.

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For casual FFA play I kinda agree with you crispy, but this is serious 1on1 play where people want to play on equal terms. Everyone who is into 1on1 DM knows these maps and it brings fairness to the tournament. Also, many new dm maps are made by people who just aren't that good DM players to be quite frank, and therefore can't maintain as good quality of gameplay.

I don't say that those maps were made by DM geniouses either, but over the years, they have been some of the most popular maps for expert DM-ers and thus earned their spots as "classic" maps.

The other possible approach would be to construct maps solely for the purpose of a tournament, and not let any of the players see them until, say, one day before the tournament begins. That would be different, but also interesting and would test players' ability to adapt.

So in closing, encourage people to try new maps in their casual FFA or friendly 1on1 games and let the pro's compete on familiar ground.

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A stable repertoire of what? A handful of maps made 8-9 years ago?

Fad-maps? Please? Dwango wads are the 2forts of Doom.

Its crappy already, because of said maps being played over and over and over.

Cyb (I think it was Cyb) released a DM wad here not to long ago. What did he say? "It will never get played?"

You know why? Because of the inabilty of people to try something new and different.
And the notion of "they have balanced gameplay ect ect" is just a piss poor excuse to hide thier lack of willingness to change.

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While overall I stand on crispy's side, in this case it makes sense. This is considered a more professional tournament, and as such it will not only have classic maps, but classic rules as well. A lot of newer dm maps allow (if not require) jumping and such, while all of these maps were made with doom's original playability in mind. Everyone who has signed up for this tournament knew in advance the maps being played, and as such the people you'll see are those that have a lot of experience playing said maps. This is not just your standard 1v1 pickup game or even a standard tourney. The players in this lineup bring an awful lot of experience to the table. Maps like d5m1 are like the football stadiums, while other maps are like the back yards and school fields (not in size, but in time-tested playability and regulation).

In reference to the first part of this paragraph, I completely agree that these maps are overplayed these days on the internet doom servers. Some people I've talked to on irc utterly refuse to play on anything other than a few particular maps, and I find that rather sad. This is often due to the fact that they have very specific strategies and routes that they go every time. Some of these people would probably get their asses kicked on a different map, especially if their opponent knows that map better than they do. It's all about knowing the map extremely well, and that's why the particular maps that are in the list were chosen, and hence the people in the roster are (and damn well should) know those maps like the back of their hand.

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Well then I can only hope that other maps will be included in tournaments down the road.

Can't let some thing like that stagnate too much.

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Remember that the mappers are there for the players, not the other way around.

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I believe that for "high stakes" tournies like this one, it would be a good idea to consider throwing in a few unknown maps. Simple reasoning, really - it's not as cheap as using the same old, same old. A truly good player can adapt their skills to any map and still come out on top.

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Maybe they are the most well known maps, but that doesnt make them good. The site describes it as "the Top 4 professional maps". Well, unless you're just new around here, you should know those mentioned are definitely not professional. Well known, yes, but thats only because they were back in 1994 fed to the public as the only option (and they still are fed to us like that, just count the servers).

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I'd say, professional as in what expericenced players chose... not as in whether a mapper spent a year making a hallway.

Job said:
A truly good player can adapt their skills to any map and still come out on top.

Undoubtably, and then again, the best games will be on familiar fields, as you can rely on both dexterity and circumstantial intuition, as well as tactical mastery.

But there isn't much of an argument, since in the end the players decide where they play more than the mappers do. Any "classic" tournament will incur these complaints, mostly from frustrated mappers.

They are like a drunkardly James Hetfield composing:
For me the lyric process was, give me the music, I'll go in my cave, I'll shut the door and then just wallow in sh--. Or wallow in hell for a while. And see what it brings up. Then I'd emerge from the cave. Ta-da! Like I've got the tablets or something. And if someone would say, "Eh, that's OK," it would send me into this rage and I couldn't believe that my best was not good enough.

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welp, i've been saying it for years and I'll say it again...MAP01 and dwango5 map01 are both terrible dm levels. map01 completely distorts the Doom skillset - playing deathmatch on MAP01 isn't like playing deathmatch on *any* other map, so I just don't understand why it's so popular, it's effectively a different game - and dwango5 is just...so...irritating, and clearly better suited to ffa than 1v1. i've never understood why both these maps are so ridiculously popular. i'm glad judas23_ is in there, that's a good map.

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Most likely map01 is so popular because it's so very different from other maps. It allows experienced players to completely roll over players new to the map and creates a sensation of being exclusive and "hard" (which it is to weaker players and those without the right mindset). It also tests players psychological strength a lot more than other maps as you may feel very hopeless and frustrated when you get a fragrun against you or when someone camps you out. This aspect just isn't there in many other maps and it can't be created with some simple formula.

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AdamW said:
map01 completely distorts the Doom skillset - playing deathmatch on MAP01 isn't like playing deathmatch on *any* other map, so I just don't understand why it's so popular, it's effectively a different game - and dwango5 is just...so...irritating, and clearly better suited to ffa than 1v1.

Few maps, if any, provide such a marked effect over play as DOOM II Map01 does. Most maps are circular or open deals, where players dance around, instead. That actually makes it stand out a lot. For one thing it's Map01 of the game itself... and since it's suitable for DM and has it's own character, it stands out so much.

I'm not personally that much of a fan of Dwango5 Map01, but have seen great recordings there and don't find it hard to respect other players' choices.

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myk said:

I'd say, professional as in what expericenced players chose...

If I'd throw you in a pit every time and let you climb out, eventually you will get experienced climbing out, wether you like the pit or not. It doesnt matter what you feed people, they can get experience on it. Think about that.

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Not true, people can play whatever they want.

Also, the analogy that people are being forced to do anything is totally inaccurate... in regards to a game, a relatively stable or recognizable set of maps (at least within a certain spectrum, in this case "pro playing" as they call it) is that the people are speaking the same language. Go argue by the Tower of Babel.

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Btw, there are (and have been for ages) two completely different sides on this matter, with completely different view on things. You could call this the oldschool vs the newschool. Noone has ever changed their opinion on the matter and noone ever will so this debate is and has been rather useless all along...

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Erik said:

Btw, there are (and have been for ages) two completely different sides on this matter, with completely different view on things. You could call this the oldschool vs the newschool. Noone has ever changed their opinion on the matter and noone ever will so this debate is and has been rather useless all along...


But it's hindering the community. New people coming in see all these maps quality maps being and when they hop on the servers what do they get? Outdated maps from way back that no longer reflect the maturity and dedication of the community.

And as for playing what they want, how?
Most people dont have the bandwidth or resources to get good servers up and running.

They have to wait until FNF comes around, pray they can find a decent server running or deal with Dwango wads.
Unless you have a LAN at home, you are for the most part screwed. Until some good bots come back. coughCarnevilcough ;)

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The map selection is horrible. These geeks need to open their windows and see that there is actually some variety in the world.

Ideally, tournaments should use never-before-played maps to truly determine the best Doomers, and not simply the best Dwangoers.


Oldschool and newschool both have their place, but if ALL the tournaments are oldschool, then the people running the tournaments are true idiots.

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Whether you like it or not, these maps have been played by the Top level players forever since 1995, and there's no denying it, the best Map1 players are the best players in the world on any map, and they adapt to any other map faster than anyone else, they have the best aim, the best movement, and usually the best tactics, and if you think differently, you can come and try to prove me wrong, many have tried...

Map1 requires the highest skillset because it's so perfected, the other maps have been secondary and tertiary for quite some time with maybe the exception of D5m7 which never got a lot of attention. This is a pro tourney, and it will be played on the most over seen pro maps. Which is Map1, and D5M1 ********ly.

Most players don't care for the map, that's fine, some players play for fun, some play to get good and be the best, this tournament is worth prizes, if you ever even want to be acknowledged u have to be good at Map1 and D5M1... and those playes who are the best can be thrown into any map and pull out ahead in a 1 on 1, garenteed.

The best players in the world all play Map1, you can live with it, or go play around with the other newbie players and play something different and not care, we're not rewarding newbie play, we're rewarding professional and top level play.

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Oldschool and newschool both have their place, but if ALL the tournaments are oldschool, then the people running the tournaments are true idiots.

Well, you can call me an idiot, but Oldskool play is the top level play, I don't know anyone whose a good doomers who plays only new school maps, but then again, look where I'm at... if you think I'm an idiot cause I can beat u 50-5 on Map1 (Which I most likely can to most of you) don't worry, I can at least double you on any new map you come up with, or any "new school" map you choose. If you question my authority, or my skill, then come and challenge my authority, and get smoked by it like most people do.

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AndrewB said:

Ideally, tournaments should use never-before-played maps to truly determine the best Doomers, and not simply the best Dwangoers.

I agree, playing on a map like map01 (or dwango map01) leaves people who haven't mastered the strategies of those maps at an extreme disadvantage. New maps force players to come up with strategies much faster and leaves players on equal footing regardless of how many hours they've wasted playing on one or two maps.

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As the guy running the tournament and supplying the prizes, I was gonna write a pretty lengthy reply. But I won't. All I'll say is if YOU can find someone who is willing to put $80 of prizes towards a tourney consisting of just fresh maps, good luck.

I don't see what the deal is with map1, d5m1, judas23, etc. If doom2 were released today, they would be the equivalent of the 'official' DM levels, the same way Quake had DM1-6, Quake2 with The Edge, Frag Pipe, etc. What are they playing at the tourney's? Homebrew maps? No, they're playing the official DM levels cause that's what everyone is trying to get good at.

In fact, I was hoping to make this an annual event of competition level tournaments with prizes. If it expands I was hoping we could have a 3v3 CTF, as well as another tournament with newer maps. I don't know why you guys are ranting so much bullshit. Of all the tourneys I could have ran, this one was sure to get the most people interested and bring in the top players. There's always room for different types in the future if it's successful. You start off small and with what people know, then you expand if it works.

Sheesh, chill the hell out.

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