ZDaemon Tourney 2004

[DevastatioN]

Map1 is set in stone how to play, takes a lot of study and practice, and requires a lot of overall skill to play, thats why it's a top map... it's hard to find new ways to play it, and if you manage to succeed in finding something new, the map gets interesting in how to deal with it... the weapon balance is very good, its slightly SSG oriented.

D5M1 is not eprfected, but the overall balance is a bit off, D5M1 is compeltely SSG oriented with slight BFG use, also, because it's less perfected there are many different ways to play it, and the player has more choice of using his own ideas, the way the level is designed, the movement in it is quite nice, also, it's a map where cutting off your opponent and using the right resources at the right time are important... D5M1 requires more off the top of your brain play.

Judas23_ is there because the weapon balance is great, it's also a fast aggressive map where you also have to think off top of your head, this is more reflex oriented and aim oriented than strategy oriented, movement is very important with your reflexes.

Is there another map today with unique stuff like this? I find most of the maps actually poor, very bad quality, mostly open areas that you SSG, the maps arent designed to use other weapons. The problem is, people don't know how to make maps anymore.

[hobomaster22]

Wow, all I have to say is, you guys are taking this crap way too seriously :(.

[Waldon]

First, let me start by saying how much I've missed this place. Second, let me ask AndrewB, who seems to have changed nothing over the years, why the best qw/q2/q3/ut/whatever else players quickly adapt to the new games and turn out to be among the best time and time again?

"You are absolutely full of it. I dare you to hold a never-before-seen-maps tournament and see who comes out on top."

You are absolutely clueless. Thresh had won a major Doom2 tourney and later became the best known Quake player ever. Fata played q3 on the highest skill level in the world and went on to excel in Unreal Tournament, Painkiller and Doom 3. Not two maps, two completely different games and engines.

Then again, we've been hearing this "I only suck on this map, I'll rape you on any other ones" argument out of losers for as long as deathmatch has been around.

Oh, yeah. If anyone doesn't like the tournament rules, prizes, maps, feel free to shut up and walk away like the quiet polite kid you are. There are shiny things in that corner, I think. The tournament is obviously organized by oldschool players for oldschoolers who want to play by the classic rules on classic maps. You don't like it, you make your own tournament.

[AndrewB]

999cop said:

AndrewB: map01 != E1M1

Who said anything about E1M1? Now that you mention it, E1M1 is a pretty good map for the anti-BFG crowd. Of course, E1M1 (like many other vintage maps) has its problems because it was made before mappers really got the feel for a balanced, varied deathmatch.

[Mogul]

999cop said:

Popularity doesn't have jack to do with why people choose Map01 and D5M1 to be ones of the best maps around. It's skills what counts and I see those two maps do indeed provide what skilled players hunger for. When playing a serious, competitive game, all the concerns regarding graphics quality whatsoever step aside.

AndrewB: map01 != E1M1

That's what I meant by popular. Map01 and D5M1 are the "how to play DOOM II" manuals.

There's barely anything worthwhile in the new maps that I've seen except maybe boo or something like that. But Map01 and D5M1 cater to DOOM II's style so much -- and yes, they require tons of skill to play at a high level on.

Once again, I can't BELIEVE(!!) that this is still being discussed.

[Mogul]

AndrewB said:

Who said anything about E1M1?

It was you who brought up E1M1.

Sorry to double post, but I just cought that.

[Bloodshedder]

AndrewB said:

Who said anything about E1M1?

AndrewB said:

This also wouldn't be such an issue if D5M1 and E1M1 weren't such below-average maps.

[AndrewB]

Sorry, I meant to say "MAP01" and not "E1M1."

[DevastatioN]

Nice reply Waldon, you can clearly tell who has a clue and who doesnt :) sounds like u like the doomworld forums as much as I do haha, putting up with random clueless comments from a group of people whom 99% of them have never seen top players play is always fun.

How you doing btw Waldon, if you have Painkiller lets play sometime :)

[Mogul]

Painkiller. :(

[Use]

Erik said:

This is one of the main issues I have with most modern DM designers, they think the BFG is the strongest weapon and malplace it in some 20% lava or whatever which frequently makes it totally useless in 1on1).

Hmm interesting. Over the last few years I designed some of my own deathmatch maps to be released with my meagwad and this is a good point.

[AndrewB]

Weapons like the BFG should be placed in hard-to-get areas. You know that whenever anyone ever complains about "BFG lamers," it's in a map where it takes two seconds to get it.

[Waldon]

AndrewB said:

You know that whenever anyone ever complains about "BFG lamers," it's in a map where it takes two seconds to get it.

You also know that anyone complaining about BFG usage is a loser.

[Szymanski]

DevastatioN said:

I find most of the maps actually poor, very bad quality, mostly open areas that you SSG, the maps arent designed to use other weapons. The problem is, people don't know how to make maps anymore.

And if they did, they don't get played anyway.

catch 22

[AdamW]

completely off-topic, please don't misapply the idea of "catch 22". catch 22, properly understood, is really a situation in which, despite the apparent existence of alternatives, you have no choice but to do one (usually crazy) thing. the original was, if I remember the book correctly, a situation where you could not fly a mission into enemy territory if you were insane. However, claiming insanity as grounds for avoiding the mission was clearly a very sensible thing to do, and in fact demonstrated that you were completely sane, therefore...off you go into the blue. (I hope I'm not misremembering that.)

anyway. It's interesting to read Dev's and 999cop's posts above, as what I actually meant my post to mean was that MAP01 is quite *anti*-SSG; I tend to favour SSG as a dm weapon and I do a lot better on judas23_ than MAP01. To do better on MAP01 (as well as changing my play style quite considerably) I have to force myself to use BFG and rocket launcher a lot more. So I wouldn't agree with 999cop's position, there.

btw, I wouldn't say I necessarily agree with the posters saying *new* maps should be used. I agree that many new maps are garbage in terms of actually producing skilled deathmatch play. (I do like boo.wad, good point for mentioning it, 999cop). There are plenty of other years-old levels that were actually quite popular years ago which never seem to get played any more. What about the dweller wads, for instance? Xoleras played those a lot, but I haven't seen a high quality game played on dweller in years.

[AndrewB]

Waldon said:

You also know that anyone complaining about BFG usage is a loser.

Of course I know that.

[Mogul]

AdamW said:

(I do like boo.wad, good point for mentioning it, 999cop)

It was I who mentioned it. :)

[Erik]

AndrewB said:

Weapons like the BFG should be placed in hard-to-get areas. You know that whenever anyone ever complains about "BFG lamers," it's in a map where it takes two seconds to get it.

This is what I am talking about...

[999cop]

Just wait until this wad comes out

http://tokeserv.ath.cx:81/dmerscompilation/

It will certainly blow everyone's mind for some serious 1 on 1 kick-ass games.

AdamW: You could screw the SSG if you want and play like Chewy, on map01 anyway

[Waldon]

sgtcrispy said:

I'm bashing the maps. And to be honest, Professional? If it was CPL or one of the other then maybe.

Your ignorance is amusing. The CPL is professional? That must be why the featured game of the 2005 World Tour is going to be Painkiller. Maybe the ten people that play it can share the $1.000.000 prize.

[sgtcrispy]

Waldon said:

Your ignorance is amusing. The CPL is professional? That must be why the featured game of the 2005 World Tour is going to be Painkiller. Maybe the ten people that play it can share the $1.000.000 prize.

Oh please.

CPL = Cyberathlete PROFESSIONAL League

And let me a get a tissue for all the poor little UT players out their crying about Painkiller getting in instead of UT2K4.

Boo hoo hoo.

I'm actually glad to see that something is being played. Give someone else a chance for once. Variety is the spice of life.

[Mogul]

I'm interested in PK's 1v1, but most pro-level gamers agree that it's pretty horrible.

[Waldon]

sgtcrispy said:

CPL = Cyberathlete PROFESSIONAL League

And let me a get a tissue for all the poor little UT players out their crying about Painkiller getting in instead of UT2K4.

I'm actually glad to see that something is being played. Give someone else a chance for once. Variety is the spice of life.

So because the word professional is in their name, they must be just that. Good thinking, Jim.

Which part of this is hard to understand: Painkiller has less of a community than Doom 2 does. At any moment, you are more likely to find people playing just one Doom port (zdaemon) than all of pk.

The only thing that's keeping it alive is the promise of money being dumped into it. The CPL chose pk because id wants money for Doom 3 tournaments and UT2004 is supposedly unsupported right now. Halo was a joke, cs is not duel, q3 is too old. All that's left is pk.

By the way, you don't need to tell me about the CPL. I've actually been there.

[Waldon]

Mogul said:

I'm interested in PK's 1v1, but most pro-level gamers agree that it's pretty horrible.

pk is not all bad. The netcode is still far from perfect after all the patches and there's room for a couple of good maps too. Weapon balance could be improved, but they got at least bunny hopping somewhat right -- if a little easy -- the game still needs ramp jumping imo.

Maybe I'll take a look at it on our LAN today.

[NiGHTMARE]

I'm sorry, but if being a top-level player makes you act like an arrogant, rude, stubborn, stuck-up SOB (as this thread strongly suggests it does), I'd prefer to stick with poor playing skills :(.

People skills beat DMing skills hands down.

[DevastatioN]

I have good people skills when people don't act like morons, unfortunately, doomworld as a whole and most port communities fill this pretty easily.

Waldon has been to CPL for a DooM2 tournament and finished quite well, there are no CPL Professionals that are good at DooM, the only DooM professionals are the ones youll find in a tight private IRC group known as #nightmare for the most part.

The BFG should be hard to get so people won't complain, see, there we go... this is why there are no good top level maps, thats because you all listen to the newbies who play it, I've seen a few good new maps, and I've played them quite a bit because they were good.

If anything, you should be hiding the SSG from peolpe instead of the BFG, the SSG is about 5 times as strong as any BFG :p

[Waldon]

NiGHTMARE said:

I'm sorry, but if being a top-level player makes you act like an arrogant, rude, stubborn, stuck-up SOB (as this thread strongly suggests it does), I'd prefer to stick with poor playing skills :(.

People skills beat DMing skills hands down.

Who exactly are you referring to?

[DevastatioN]

Waldon: Prolly me and u :)

[Waldon]

DevastatioN said:

Waldon: Prolly me and u :)

In that case, I am the arrogant one and you are the rest.

[DevastatioN]

Ya, I'm pretty arrogant too in terms of retards :) and when im made I'm rude, stubborn? well, when I know for a fact I'm right, and no one around here has a chance of proving me wrong, ya, I guess that MIGHT classify as "stubborn"