ZDaemon Tourney 2004

[Erik]

Those ranks don't mean jack though.

[999cop]

Linguica said:

I think it would be interesting to do an article dissecting Map01 / D5M1 and explaining why exactly they are such popular maps, the basic strategies and tactics of them, etc. Any high level DMers feel like helping with such a thing?

Devastation has made up his own guide on map01 hosting on doom2.net; and personally I have written one on d5m1 in the past. Hope this is what you were aiming for.

All in all, it seems to me that people in here throughout the thread are just basically whining about the disadvantages they would have. Well, for me, what is going to be distinctively unfair is the matter of ping. Nothing can beat that issue as you are playing games online. As for the case about running a tournament at a professional level, didn't Quakecon also run competitive maps in their tournaments, like the ones that are often played by most players in the community. And if that's true for a fact, then what's left to argue about professionalism?

[DevastatioN]

Andrewb: it has some of the most Map1 skill as well, but not themost agreed... this one only has me and Dominus, where-as the LAN in Washington had me Dominus and Ocelot... but the overall skill is the highest, including Map1.

Also, I am writing a complete guide to DooM2, including a more defined text of Map1 Theory and an added D5M1 Theory, I have been asked to do this by many people, and will try to complete it, so far it features 74 chapters... Which is a lot I must say, so if it's done, the whole thing, all of DooM Theory combined will be a 200+ page document.

"are you a high level deathmatcher?" "probably" <--- HAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! holy shit dude, that was a good one, hey, keep them cracking, it's great jokes like this that make me keep laughing while I play DooM.

[exp(x)]

Someone's a bit cocky.

[Fredrik]

DevastatioN said:

HAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! holy shit dude, that was a good one, hey, keep them cracking, it's great jokes like this that make me keep laughing while I play DooM.

The absence of rhetorical inventiveness inherent in the above quoted piece of text is devastatingly profound.

[DevastatioN]

Cocky? ya, I get annoyed dealing with newbies usually, if they're retarded, I mean, newbies who try to not be stupid are cool, but the level of intelligance in the newbies in this post is absurd and completely low, and I found it amusing he kinda claimed himself to be high skill, I dont think going around calling average / below average players "high level players" is gonna accomplish anything except get the other retards confused.

[Manc]

DevastatioN said:

Cocky? ya, I get annoyed dealing with newbies usually, if they're retarded, I mean, newbies who try to not be stupid are cool, but the level of intelligance in the newbies in this post is absurd and completely low, and I found it amusing he kinda claimed himself to be high skill, I dont think going around calling average / below average players "high level players" is gonna accomplish anything except get the other retards confused.

You know it's funny you keep mentioning "newbie" considering that all of about one or two people who have posted in this thread could possibly be considered "noobish".

urhash said:

As the guy running the tournament and supplying the prizes, I was gonna write a pretty lengthy reply. But I won't. All I'll say is if YOU can find someone who is willing to put $80 of prizes towards a tourney consisting of just fresh maps, good luck.

Yeah I've ran prize-based contests too. I'm sure I could do it again. Big deal.

urhash continued saying:

I don't see what the deal is with map1, d5m1, judas23, etc. If doom2 were released today, they would be the equivalent of the 'official' DM levels, the same way Quake had DM1-6, Quake2 with The Edge, Frag Pipe, etc. What are they playing at the tourney's? Homebrew maps? No, they're playing the official DM levels cause that's what everyone is trying to get good at.

While it's sad that this is true, it is true nonetheless.

urhash continued saying:

In fact, I was hoping to make this an annual event of competition level tournaments with prizes. If it expands I was hoping we could have a 3v3 CTF, as well as another tournament with newer maps. I don't know why you guys are ranting so much bullshit.

Virtually none of the opinions expressed prior and after this post are bullshit. They're quite valid and make excellent points. YOU may not agree with it, but it's far from a bullshit factor.

[AndrewB]

DevastatioN said:

I dont think going around calling average / below average players "high level players" is gonna accomplish anything except get the other retards confused.

So according to you, more than 99% of Doomers are "below average..."

Someone give this guy a swirlie.

[DevastatioN]

Uh, actually yes, I do agree with that figure if your talking about ports.

Manc: only 2? I only see a few who would bt concidered NOT noobish in this thread.

[exp(x)]

You do know that calling people noobs doesn't make you sound particularly mature, right? In fact, I will venture to say that you remind me of my 15 year old brother who plays counter strike and is always calling everyone a noob. I don't care if you are amazingly good; your attitute still sucks.

[DevastatioN]

Heh, I'm perfectly fine except when I read stupid comments / bullshit thrown directly at my face, which is exactly what Andrewb and this post has done.

Most players will easily vouch for my attitude as being friendly and nice, until I get shit thrown at me, or someone pisses me off, when I'm pissed I can be a real asshole, that's true.

[sgtcrispy]

Ok can we keep this thread from turning into a BBQ? This is about maps not about peoples skill or attitude.
Do that in another in thread somewhere.
Who considers me a noob? a boob maybe.

[Bloodshedder]

Crispy, Use3d, CodeImp, pretty much everyone who posted in this thread really isn't a noob. Assuming people are new just because you haven't seen them before or very often isn't a good idea.

[DevastatioN]

Haha... nevermind bloodshedder, im not gonna start another arguement, I've seen everyone before, I know of everyone, and I've seen each player play DM and prolly have many recordings of each.

[AdamW]

dev, are you including me in your "I'm a dm god I r0x0rz!" posts? I haven't practiced dm for quite a while and the absolute top level players still hand my ass to me on a plate (hi, ocelot), but if I was in this tourney I'd be surprised if I wound up last. And I still don't like map01 or dw5map01. I can play a decent game on either, but I'm a lot better on judas23_ (or most any other dm map, really), and I would never *choose* to play either map for entertainment. I find dm'ing on MAP01 about as much fun as pulling teeth.

[AdamW]

oh, and btw, the quake series has had rather more variety in map selection in its professional history. I've followed professional quake3 since the beginning and the various leagues and tournaments run over the years have used a fair selection of maps. It's a pretty common format to use a pool of three to seven maps, and these are generally a mix of a couple of "classics" from the original game, some well-established third-party maps, AND - often - some newer and less well-known third-party maps. Over the years I must've seen fifty to sixty quake3 maps played professionally to a very high standard. Why can't Doom branch out to this extent?

[Mogul]

I greatly look forward to this ZD tourney.

Congrats to Dev and Hash for putting it together, I really can't wait! :)

As for Quake III's pro map selection -- the real competitive community has locked into a small ammount of maps.

ztn3tourney1
pro-q3dm6
pro-q3tourney4
hub3aeroq3 (and this one's just now become more commonplace [maybe because it's a Promode map])

Four maps after all these years.

[DevastatioN]

Yes, Quake3 pro is really small under 5 maps or so usually.

AdamW: no, u didn't flame me, u were not included in that, you expressed your opinion in an intelligant manner if I remeber correctly, and didn't throw stuff at the tourny directors. Also even tho you dislike the maps u understand why their chosen, your part of the same community I am (Which is far from DooMworld) and you understand such things, I would never add you in that post unles you really flamed at me :)

Also, I don't play Map1 or D5M1 for fun either, I don't play i ngeneral cause it's fun. I play those 2 maps cause they are concidered the pro maps, and cause of why I play... I play those maps... my favorite map is actually GothicDM Map11, ssl2.wad and Judas23_.wad... I like just rushing in Judas23_, holding down the E key and firing, unless I'm put into a game with a DooMGoD, I'll play the later 3 for fun. The first two tho (Map1 and D5M1) I play at a pretty serious level no matter the level of play of my opponent.

But ya, your right, Judas23_ kicks ass :) and it also has good balance, Judas makes all the weapons seem almost equally powerful, and it has great potential for possibilities AND it's also played at a pro level, thats why it's in the tournament.

[Mogul]

If you want to have a serious DOOM II tourney, Map01 is an absolute must. D5M1 isn't shocking at all on the list, and neither is Judas.

I can't believe this is even being discussed.

[AdamW]

@mogul: hmm, that list seems overly narrow to me. embarassingly, my mind's gone a total blank on level names, but some of the cpm maps have been very popular, and there's one specific original game map I'm thinking of, red-themed map, there's a quad / ya in a small outside area at one end of the map and biosuit underground / red armour in an outside courtyard at the other end, one team takes each end of the map and very little happens for a while, then the powerups spawn and there's an almighty fight while both teams try to take control of both powerups. it's obviously not a 1vs1 map, but it is/was a standard 4v4 map. i'm sure you know the one I mean.

[AdamW]

oh, and btw, dev...

"I don't play i ngeneral cause it's fun."

then why the heck do you play?! if it's for the fame, fortune and beautiful women, you're in the wrong business ;)

[Mogul]

Trust me -- that's what we play. :)

[myk]

Use3D said:
This is Doom, not baseball, that's why people make levels in the first place. Baseball is made to be played in a static field, Doom is not.

Yes, they make levels, but intelligent players don't play maps to please the designers that make them, just like smart designers don't follow players' whims when designing. They are two separate activities and they complement each other, but they are largely autonomous. Not that there aren't skilled player/designers, but for the most part they are either one or the other. One thing is to argue, specifically for a tournament, that this or that map would be a better choice, but the generic concept of playing on many maps just because they exist is totally alien to what makes good play, and disregarding the effect of the playing field is impossible... maps can be "mastered," and that takes a lot of work, which is a good part the enjoyment and challenge of excellent play.

Not to say that popular maps are necessarily better in every way than other less used or known maps out there, but the added value of that popularity and familiarity through the years does indeed grant them even greater value beyond the merits of playability. A dollar is a piece of paper, yet it's worth much more than common paper due to the way it is used and considered.

[AndrewB]

This also wouldn't be such an issue if D5M1 and E1M1 weren't such below-average maps. There's really no justification as to why they're popular, because the weapon balance is very poor and they're just bat-ugly. They're popular because they were popular, which makes them more popular, etc. D5M1 is the "Britney Spears" of deatmatch levels.

[myk]

That analogy fails it severely, unless you can point out the excellent musicians that make use of Ms. Spears' music in the same way skilled players work on those maps.

Britney Spears doesn't have texture alignment issues or underdetailed curves, anyway.

In any case they are the Rolling Stones of DM maps.

[AndrewB]

Why don't YOU try pointing out what's wrong with it? The analogy is that it's popular just because it is and there's no really clear reason why.

Non-argument arguments fail the most.

[Mogul]

Those maps characterize the "popular" way to play DOOM II. That's why they're acceptable. If you could jump, and/or look up and down, those maps would be pretty poor -- but given DOOM's limited gameplay features, those two maps are just fine.

And by the way, on the issue of weapon balance per-map, Map01's is quite good, in my opinion.

[AdamW]

map01's weapon balance is pretty good *except* that it's fairly heavily down on shotguns. But that's not its biggest problem, sure.

btw, myk, I can't resist agreeing with your Rolling Stones point - you're exactly right! They're irrelevant and hugely outdated, but misguided fanboys follow them around everywhere insisting they've "still got it"... ;)

[Erik]

Map01's weapon balance is quite perfect imo. Sure it's heavy on the ssg, but so are almost all maps since the ssg is generally the most lethal weapon in the hands of a skilled player. All weapons will find their use on map01, unlike most new maps where there is one or more readily available ssgs and the design is such that the other weapons are more or less useless. (Except maybe the BFG at times, but designers of today tend to place it in a hard-to-reach spot because they think it "balances" the gameplay. This is one of the main issues I have with most modern DM designers, they think the BFG is the strongest weapon and malplace it in some 20% lava or whatever which frequently makes it totally useless in 1on1).

[999cop]

Popularity doesn't have jack to do with why people choose Map01 and D5M1 to be ones of the best maps around. It's skills what counts and I see those two maps do indeed provide what skilled players hunger for. When playing a serious, competitive game, all the concerns regarding graphics quality whatsoever step aside.

AndrewB: map01 != E1M1