Vote for Half-Life 2 as game of the year

[Fredrik]

NiGHTMARE, if I understand you correctly you are on one hand saying that Half-Life can't be called overrated because the majority thinks it's good and only a few think it's not so good, and on the other hand you are saying that The Sims must be overrated because the majority thinks it's good and a few think it's not so good, justifying this contradiction by saying that in the latter case the majority is wrong because it consists of people who are not qualified to have opinions that matter.

In other words, you are proposing the definition that something is overrated when the majority is "wrong" and the minority "right". You go on by attempting to define what constitutes the right to have an opinion that is somehow worth more than the opinion of someone else. While I agree with your idea that the validity of an opinion to a significant extent depends on the scope of the holder's experience, this qualitative merit has nothing to do with the term "overrated".

"Overrated" strictly means by others considered to be better than in one's own opinion. This is a subjective measure, necessarily and absolutely relative to one's point of view, and semantically has nothing to do with the qualifications of any of the opinions involved.

Also, you explicitly said that something "is better" when it is "better in the opinion of the majority", which contradicts your (entirely agreeable) note that "better" is a purely subjective assessment. If you can't recall where, I'll be happy to quote it for you.

With the definitions out of the way, I would now like to proceed with the separate issue of the specific validity of opinions. You claim people who like The Sims have less worthy opinions because they are less experienced gamers. I agree. (Though, these people probably haven't claimed to have a more valid opinion on games.) I also think people who think Half-Life is the best FPS have the wrong (that is, relative to my point of view) opinion in this particular case because, frankly, I value things differently myself. I know experienced gamers who love Half-Life, experienced gamers who think it plain sucks, and everything in between; so it's not a matter of any particular opinion here being more valid than another, just one of opinions differing.

[NiGHTMARE]

I never said the majority thinks the Sims is good. Indeed, I suspect there are more haters than lovers of the game. What I said was that it scored too well in most magazines, and that too many people have bought it (mainly because they aren't aware that better games exist).

I don't see how "better in the opinion of the majority" contradicts the fact that "better" can't be used objectively. It's simply an objective statement about a subjective belief. Perhaps "the majority of people hold the opinion that it's better" would be a more agreeable phrase?

I disagree on what 'overrated' means. IMHO it's saying "all those people don't know what they're talking about, they shouldn't have said it's that good because it really isn't". In other words, by saying something's overrated you're actually claiming that your personal opinion somehow has more value than that of the majority of other people.

Bringing ignorance and inexperience into the equation certainly gives anyone the right to quickly disregard an opposing opinion. After all, if you've actually expended the neccessary time and effort to get reasonably informed about a certain topic, surely you've earned the right for your opinion in that area to be held in higher regard than someone who has no interest in the subject, or is too lazy or too stupid to learn?

However, insisting that other people who hold an opinion that's probably just as well - or more - informed as your own, should value your opinion more highly than their own is simply arrogant and insulting. When you're claiming that your opinion is more important than that of the majority of other people, well...

Now I realize that magazine reviewers usually have a lot of experience when it comes to games so by saying it's overrated in the magazines I'm actually insulting them. However, how many of the reviews actually reflect the reviewer's real opinion? Having studied media and journalism for six years, I'm well aware that you often have to place the views of the masses over your own personal tastes. I don't think there are any corporate bribes going on (well, maybe not any... let's say there aren't many) though... websites with unpaid staff are a different issue, however.

Of course I realize that some magazine reviewers may really like the Sims, and that's fine. After all, if only a small number of magazines gave a game a high score, and the majority gave it a low score then it wouldn't be overrated, would it?

[Fredrik]

The problem with magazine reviews is that the writers who are the biggest fans of a genre (or particular series) are most likely to be assigned the reviews of those games, which in many cases inevitably leads to some tilt.

This is not only done in order to let those with the greatest expertise do the reviews, but to a great extent because readers prefer euphoric reviews for games they want to like, and the only way to sell a magazine is to give readers what they want.

[Nick Perrin]

Shaviro said:

Actually. I think the most frequent complaint about hl2 is, aside from the bugs and problems, that the storyline is either really lame or almost non-existant.

Yes, but HL1 had the exact same problem.

Edit: If you put too much story into an FPS, it will get boring. I think what they tried to do with HL1 and HL2 is get a perfect balance between the story and the action.

[Snarboo]

NiGHTMARE said:

Anyway, how about naming some FPS' which are better than Half-life instead of just saying "oh, it's overrated"?

I would be glad to! Here is my list of games I find to be better than Half-Life, although this is just my opinion:

Doom, Doom 2, Final Doom(if it counts), Quake and it's mission packs, System Shock, System Shock 2, Chaser: Fight your way through Hell, Time Splitters 2, Arx Fatalis(more of an RPG, but from the first person), Metroid Prime, Maken X, Hexen 2, Hexen, Heretic, Marathon, Marathon 2, Marathon Infinity, Halo to a certain extent and those are just the games I remember liking more or are just FPS games. I could list the non-FPS games that I like more if you want. :)

I know that most of these games might not be better in the majority's opinion as you had specified Nightmare, but what makes the majority's opinion any more valid/better than mine or anyone else's?

[pilottobombadier]

Opinions are like assholes; everybody's got one. I haven't played HL2, but my opinion of HL1 - which I did play is this: It's severely overrated.

[Sharessa]

NiGHTMARE said:

Objectively speaking, the Sims is a highly sucessful game. Subjectively speaking, which is what I was doing, it's terrible. "Anyone with decent taste in games" was really the wrong phrase to use - what I meant was "anyone who's played a wide range of games". The majority of people who've bought and play the Sims are housewives and teenage girls, the majority of whom have little gaming experience... and that is an objective fact, not a subjective opinion.

I don't really see how they are less of an authority, especialy since I know several long-time gamers (including myself) who think it's rather fun. I think the fact that it has sold millions and most everyone who has played it thinks it's fun shows that it is one of the greatest games of all time. I know in my opinion, and ********ly in yours, it isn't one of the best games made, but
it's done well. If it's overrated then so is Star Wars (which is a movie franchise that has attracted more money than most other movies yet is severely lacking in cinematic quality to anyone who has seen enough good films).

It's the same with Halo and it's sequel. They're highly successful games, but a large number of people who proclaim them to be the greatest games ever actually have little experience with other FPS'. A lot of Halo 2 fanboys probably consider PC gamers to be geeks.

That's not true. Pretty much everyone I know who has played Halo is a multi-platform gamer. My friends (who own every console plus PCs) are all fans of the game, yet they've played every FPS since Quake. But what game we always decide to play when we sit down for a session of console gaming? Halo most of the time. I'm even a pretty big fan of the game and I've played everything from Catacomb Abyss to Doom3. Even online people I know like it. Deadnail, for example thinks it's the best thing since sex yet he plays pretty much every game which has come out. I know Liam has some respect for the game as well. I'm sure there are several other people in the community who can say the same thing.

So you're wrong. It's not just fanboys who have played nothing else.

Half-life, on the other hand, is highly successful AND most of the people who've played it have experience with other, similar games. Having a frame of reference enables someone to give a qualified opinion, whereas the opinion of someone who has little or nothing to use as a comparison is far more easily dismissed. They're still entitled to their opinion, of course, but that opinion is of much less use and worth to other people.

See, I can turn this back on you right here. It has been my observation that most of the people (maybe not a vast majority, but I'd say at least 50%) got Half-Life because they liked Counterstrike. It seems like most Half-Life fanboys are middle school kiddies who've played nothign else for the most part. If you;re going to make generalisations about Halo players, I think I can make this generalisation about Half-Life players.


Anyway, you asked for some FPSs, so here's a few:

Doom - Everyone who was a gamer in the early-mod 90s played Doom and 90% of them thought it was the greatest game ever made for a while at least. Hell, it outsold Windows for about a year.

Quake - Though Doom invented most of the things that showed up in this game, Quake was the one that brought stuff like "deathmatch" and "frags" into the mainstream since this came out about the time PCs became cool and hip to non-geeks. Many people think Quake was the epitomy of deathmatch play (Hell, tons of people refer to it as the original deathmatch game which I guess shows their ignorance of Doom).

Quake 2 - I remember this game was the absolute shit for a while. Between the time this came out and 1999 (when Unreal Tournament, Quake 3, and Half-Life all came out which killed Id as the dominating force on the FPS market) it was the only game anyone ever talked about. Of course, this was just among the people I knew in real life since I only used the internet for downloading stuff at that point (chatting with other people online sounded silly and nerdy to me).

Unreal - Though I've never played this game, everyone I know who has played it claims that it is either the best or one of the best FPSes ever made. Most of these people seem to be rather derisive about Half-Life, so I assume it has everythign Half-Life has and more plus was made like a year before.

Goldeneye - Anyone who ever owned a N64 probably held this as their favorite console FPS at least for a while. It was one of the best selling 64 games in the early days of the console, and I have to admit it was really damn fun despite the shitty graphics.

I'd also add DN3D and Thief to the list, but those are just my opinions (not to mention Thief isn't really and FPS though it gets grouped there).

[toxicfluff]

Danarchy said:

Unreal - Though I've never played this game, everyone I know who has played it claims that it is either the best or one of the best FPSes ever made. Most of these people seem to be rather derisive about Half-Life, so I assume it has everythign Half-Life has and more plus was made like a year before.

Unreal has some text-logs you can read, but beyond that the fundamental gameplay is no different to Doom, Duke, Quake et al.

[NiGHTMARE]

Danarchy said:

That's not true. Pretty much everyone I know who has played Halo is a multi-platform gamer. My friends (who own every console plus PCs) are all fans of the game, yet they've played every FPS since Quake. But what game we always decide to play when we sit down for a session of console gaming? Halo most of the time. I'm even a pretty big fan of the game and I've played everything from Catacomb Abyss to Doom3. Even online people I know like it. Deadnail, for example thinks it's the best thing since sex yet he plays pretty much every game which has come out. I know Liam has some respect for the game as well. I'm sure there are several other people in the community who can say the same thing.

Read the relevant part of my post again, this time more carefully please. Did I say that absolutely everyone who likes Halo(2) has little experience with other FPS', as this quote implies? No, I said a large number of people who think that Halo(2) is the best FPS ever have little experience with other FPS'.

See, I can turn this back on you right here. It has been my observation that most of the people (maybe not a vast majority, but I'd say at least 50%) got Half-Life because they liked Counterstrike. It seems like most Half-Life fanboys are middle school kiddies who've played nothign else for the most part. If you;re going to make generalisations about Halo players, I think I can make this generalisation about Half-Life players.

One major flaw in that theory: the majority of people who'd played it considered Half-life the greatest FPS ever before Counter-Strike even existed. Counter-Strike also didn't exist at the time of the Half-life magazine reviews, which are a major part of this discussion.

Even today, if you were to somehow get the opinions of every single gamer in the world, you'd almost certainly find that Half-life won the "best single player FPS ever made" category.

And as I already made clear, I wasn't talking about all Halo players, I was talking about those who think it's better than every other FPS in existence.

Anyway, you asked for some FPSs, so here's a few:

I asked for some FPS' which are better than Half-life in the opinion of the majority of gamers not just your own personal opinion. These games may be good, but unfortunately none of them are more popular than Half-life.

Countless reader polls in magazines, on websites, etc have already proven that Half-life is the most popular FPS ever made, so if anyone wants to try to prove otherwise, I'm afraid it's going to take one heck of a lot of work.

[Snarboo]

NiGHTMARE said:

Countless reader polls in magazines, on websites, etc have already proven that Half-life is the most popular FPS ever made, so if anyone wants to try to prove otherwise, I'm afraid it's going to take one heck of a lot of work.

Not really. Danarchy just said that Doom during one point in time outsold Windows. I don't even think Half-Life has done that. Let's also not forget that the shareware episode of Doom has over 10 million downloads, and that's if I remember correctly. :p I'm sure if you compared the number of downloads of Half-Life 2 over Steam it wouldn't be anywhere near that number. I'd say Doom has Half-Life beat as the most popular FPS game ever made, especially since it was the first that was extremely popular.

And frankly, Half-Life 2 being the most popular FPS game ever means shit compared to games like the Sims 2 or Rollercoster Tycoon which are generally always at the top of sales charts. Now I must ask you, Nightmare, if whether or not your interpreting the number of sales of a game to mean that the game really is that good. The majority of people voted for Bush, after all, but does that make him a good president?

[Fredrik]

Actually Doom didn't outsell Windows, it was the shareware version that was more widely distributed.

[NiGHTMARE]

Snarboo said:

Now I must ask you, Nightmare, if whether or not your interpreting the number of sales of a game to mean that the game really is that good. The majority of people voted for Bush, after all, but does that make him a good president?

Where did I ever mention sales? I'm talking about what people think of the game. In fact, the part of my post you quoted shows that - a poll is not a compilation of sales figures, it's a compilation of opinions.

[Fredrik]

Danarchy did (not sure whether you're addressing me).

[NiGHTMARE]

Sorry, I was replying to Snarboo, who quoted me and I therefore assume was adressing me.

[Snarboo]

NiGHTMARE said:

In fact, the part of my post you quoted shows that - a poll is not a compilation of sales figures, it's a compilation of opinions.

I think actual sales are more important than popularity polls at judging just how well a game is doing. I guess you could say Half-Life is the most popular game right now based on opinion, but I'm not sure you could argue the same for actual sales, but enough of that. I honestly think Half-Life is an overhyped/overrated game. It might still be popular now, but can it stand the test of time? Will people still be playing the game when newer and "better" games come out? I doubt Half-Life's formuliac gameplay can keep people playing for much longer.

That's honestly why I believe Doom is the more popular or a better game than Half-Life. The game is ten years old and it's still selling and being played by people around the world, and I wouldn't be surprised if it continued to be that way. Sure, Doom might just be for nostalgia buffs or a shadow of it's former self by then, but people still play Pac-Man or Pong and that's older than Doom. That to me is an even better sign of how good a game really is or how popular it is than what current polls/opinion and sales figures dictate.

This is all my opinion, however. Does it really matter if I think Half-Life is overrated? Hell no! The game will still be fun to play for most people. I don't see why anyone should feel the need to defend a game or think they have to "enlighten" other people about how good a game is. That's not your decision to make, but the other person's about what they should play or think. I say just play the game and enjoy it! :)

Disclaimer:
Note that the final paragraph isn't really addressed to anyone but those that have been saying, "Half-Life 2 is teh greatest game EVAH and if you don't agree with me or think another game is better I'm going to stab you with a ball point pen while screaming profanities!" It could also be addressed to those that have been saying the exact opposite, or to anyone really who has been forcing an opinion on someone else.

[NiGHTMARE]

I am not trying to say how good the game is (heck there are lots of games I prefer), I'm simply trying to point out that it's not overrated. What the majority of people think of a game's quality level, not your own personal opinion or sales figures, is what matters in this regards.

As far as I'm concerned, a game can only accurately be said to be overrated in a few circumstances, e.g.:

1) there are a large number of people who enjoy proclaiming it's virtues, but it is still in fact disliked by more people than like it. In other words, it needs to have a large minority in it's favour.

2) a large number of people (even a majority) prefer the game to similar games, but in most cases the reason for this is because they haven't actually played (m)any other similar games.

[Snarboo]

NiGHTMARE said:

As far as I'm concerned, a game can only accurately be said to be overrated in a few circumstances, e.g.:

1) there are a large number of people who enjoy proclaiming it's virtues, but it is still in fact disliked by more people than like it. In other words, it needs to have a large minority in it's favour.

2) a large number of people (even a majority) prefer the game to similar games, but in most cases the reason for this is because they haven't actually played (m)any other similar games.

I would disagree. I think a game is overrated when a majority of people buy it or say it's the best thing ever without actual thinking about their purchase or their words. In other words, when people buy into the hype, regardless of how educated the people are, that's when a product is overrated to me. I do agree with the second part, but only if the products actual merits are questionable. Sometimes things that are popular really are that good. That's just what I think though.

[Bucket]

Technically it's the Counterstrike addon that you guys are talking about. I'm sure that an infantecimal amount of people actually still play the single-player version of HL or its DM counterpart.

If you say HL is overrated, then you're talking about the original experience, which isn't too popular by today's standards. It hasn't aged well, to say the least. Think about "popular opinion" of the final Xen levels, if you don't understand.

It was great in its day, but nowadays it just doesn't cut it-- and this is the popular opinion. Unless you really think HL is absolute shit, there's nothing "overrated" about it. CS, on the other hand, is the culprit here and in my opinion grossly overrated. It, too, was cool in the early beta days, but now it seems to have zero redeeming value. And I'm talking about more than the crappy players and servers and the retarded fanbase. The game itself isn't all that fantastic.

Anyway-- yeah.

Incidentally, I have the feeling that you can't talk about HL being overrated without CS being inferred.

[NiGHTMARE]

Snarboo said:

I would disagree. I think a game is overrated when a majority of people buy it or say it's the best thing ever without actual thinking about their purchase or their words. In other words, when people buy into the hype, that's when a product is overrated to me. That's just what I think though.

I edited in a second possibly before reading this :).

Numbermind: I already said that no, I wasn't referring to Counter-Strike. A part of the early overrated discussion revolved around magazine reviews, and clearly they couldn't have been influenced by CS because it didn't even exist then!

I think you'll find that the majority of people do still see Half-Life as (one of) the best single player FPS' out there.

Also, when talking about things being overrated, age really ought to be factored into the equation by default.

[Snarboo]

NiGHTMARE said:

I edited in a second possibly before reading this :).

I did the same to follow suit. :)

[NiGHTMARE]

Snarboo said:

I would disagree. I think a game is overrated when a majority of people buy it or say it's the best thing ever without actual thinking about their purchase or their words. In other words, when people buy into the hype, regardless of how educated the people are, that's when a product is overrated to me.

If you ask me, anyone who lets the hype so drastically influence their opinion even after playing the game for themselves, is so utterly pathetic/idiotic that their views can be safely ignored :P.

I really don't think the majority of people would be so strongly affected, and to me this simply sounds like an excuse given by a person who disagrees with popular opinion, rather than actual fact with a basis in reality.

[Snarboo]

NiGHTMARE said:

I really don't think the majority of people would be so strongly affected, and to me this simply sounds like an excuse given by a person who disagrees with popular opinion, rather than actual fact with a basis in reality.

It does have some basis in reality when your talking about other products. Take Pepsi and Coke. Neither one is really better than the other, but people will swear on their mother's grave that Cola X is better. Both colas are overhyped to me. Meanwhile, there are some people who like RC Cola who don't really understand the whole fuss. :) There's even a paradox that I believe is called Baridian's Ass that says it's not possible to make a rational decision when both items are of equal value.

You might say that this doesn't apply to Half-Life 2 or something being overhyped, but it does when you consider how many other games/products of equal value there are out there that people will not play because they think Game Y is better, either from hype or "warped" personal conviction. Sometimes convictions are so strong that a person's brains will rewire them into thinking that it really is better. Situations like those show that people are much easier affected by hype than we would like to believe.

[dsm]

I like the story of HL2 - sure it doesn't really explain anything, but the entire situation and chain of events are kinda nice.

Also, HL2 is good game (but I don't agree that it's "the shit" - it has plenty of nuisances to ruin the fun on occasion) - quit saying that it sucks, because then you abuse that term.

[Sharessa]

NiGHTMARE said:

Read the relevant part of my post again, this time more carefully please. Did I say that absolutely everyone who likes Halo(2) has little experience with other FPS', as this quote implies? No, I said a large number of people who think that Halo(2) is the best FPS ever have little experience with other FPS'.

Of all the Halo fans I've met that think it is the best FPS ever, offline and online, most of them had played several other FPSes. Of course, I've never been on any Halo forums, so I don't know. Maybe you're right.

One major flaw in that theory: the majority of people who'd played it considered Half-life the greatest FPS ever before Counter-Strike even existed. Counter-Strike also didn't exist at the time of the Half-life magazine reviews, which are a major part of this discussion.

Yeah, well we all know the gaming magazines suck te industry's cock which was my point on that issue. But seriously, I havent met a single person who has actualy though Half-Life was the best FPS ever made aside from people on Counterstrike servers, who are full of them.

I asked for some FPS' which are better than Half-life in the opinion of the majority of gamers not just your own personal opinion.

Gah, did you even fucking read what I had to say. None of those were chosen for the fact that I thought they were awesome (okay, maybe Quake 2), in fact I hadn't even played one of them. But you would have known that anyway if you had bothered to fucking read my post. Seriously, if you're going to take part in a discussion, please pay attention.

[Shaviro]

So far I've passed Ravenholm. Pretty awesome game, though the enemies suck totally. All except the combine are so very annoying. The gravity gun is actually kinda fun....especially combined with barrels >:D

Oh yeah. The ability to shoot as fast as you can click is awesome.

[Nick Perrin]

Shaviro said:

...though the enemies suck totally...

Don't worry, Ravenholm's the only place where all you fight is zombies, I mean its a zombie-infested town! Just wait till you get to the buggy ride!! Ooh it rocks. Then you'll get to face some gunships and ant lions, etc.

I can only guess how much fun striders must be to fight... They look awesome.

[Mordeth]

boris said:
WoW is game of the year!

Amen!

[Darkhaven]

Well, now that Doomworld knows about this poll, I'm guessing Doom3 will either win, or come in very close to winning. And where Doom3 is, feel free to insert Halo2 or Halflife2.

[Ayu]

DJ_Haruko said:

Given that I didn't like the first all that well, I don't see any point in voting for the 2nd which I don't plan on playing until it's in the bargain bins anyways. And also given the numerous problems I've heard happpening with Steam, I just can't vote for it.

But that's just me :)

oh trust me it is worth it. Even tho it still has that annoying 20 minute or so no-weapon opening (but the train ride isn't that long, like 3 seconds long right after the G-man shuts himself up) but HL2 completely did something right. I even feel disappointed with the first half-life after playing HL2. And I loved the original half-life.

[NiGHTMARE]

Danarchy said:

Yeah, well we all know the gaming magazines suck te industry's cock which was my point on that issue.

No, paranoid and rather arrogant people who refuse to accept that general public opinion differs from their own think that :|. Being very familiar with the journalism industry (I did, after all, study media and journalism for six years ;)), I can tell you that such a theory is utter shite and should be placed in the same location other shite goes - down the toilet. Though it'll most likely still leave a nasty smell behind.

No magazine publisher in their right mind would chance the short term benefit of a bit of extra cash over the long term risk of complete bankruptcy if they got found out; after all, who would buy a magazine from a company they knew for a fact they couldn't trust?

But seriously, I havent met a single person who has actualy though Half-Life was the best FPS ever made aside from people on Counterstrike servers, who are full of them.

Sounds like you haven't met many people then! :P Almost every PC player I know in real life (well over two dozen) thinks Half-life is the best game ever, and I've spoken to many others on-line as well.

Gah, did you even fucking read what I had to say. None of those were chosen for the fact that I thought they were awesome (okay, maybe Quake 2), in fact I hadn't even played one of them. But you would have known that anyway if you had bothered to fucking read my post. Seriously, if you're going to take part in a discussion, please pay attention.

First of all, if you're going to start using foul language and flaming people, please calm yourself down a bit and think carefully about how to act like a mature and reasoned individual when taking part in an otherwise intelligent and rational discussion.

Yes I did read that. However, I could say that the majority of people think that I am their belligerent overlord and they should do whatever I say, but that wouldn't make it true! :D

The fact that just about any opinion poll you care to look at ranks Half-life higher than these games just shows that you didn't answer the question properly. The games you listed are not more well liked than Half-life... and without facts (which I have - as I said just look at the opinion polls) I'm afraid you cannot prove otherwise.