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Not Jabba

The End of Everything

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The Icon of Sin is okay as a boss. I was never thrilled that he was a wall, but it's something different at least. Yeah, it's been said before, I know.

I never really thought of him as the Devil, though, just a powerful minion who spearheaded the invasion of earth, the same way the original spiderdemon spearheaded the invasion of mars. I used to entertain the hope that Final Doom might reveal the REAL boss, but it turned out to have two more Icons. In fact, pretty much every WAD ever made just has another Icon of Sin.

So somewhere out there, there must be a Satan, or some comparable ultimate overlord of hell. You might say my Doom experience over the years has been, in part, a quest to find and destroy that demon. I like to think that eventually it all ends, and the poor, severely overworked Doom guy gets to put down his weapons and retire to the Bahamas or something.

Anybody else ever feel that way, or am I just crazy?

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well- at the end of Doom2 it says something like "you wonder where bad folks go when they die now.." so i guess he was the ultimate demon, i mean, since killing him seems to have destroyed hell itself.

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I think that the Doom Guy only thinks Hell is destroyed in that scene, since they come back in Final Doom...

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Foofoo said:

killing him seems to have destroyed hell itself.

It only says that hell is "a wreck" and has had "untold miles" of its surface devastated (I always thought that sounded ridiculous) by the demon's "thrashing limbs".

Personally, I wouldn't read too much into all that claptrap the wonderful storyline.

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The story is DOOM and DOOM II, and it ends there. Everything else is secondary. The Boss in Map 30 is the final and ultimate enemy as far as it matters.

If I'm not mistaken, Satan put forth production money for the games; so don't mess with him.

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myk said:

The story is DOOM and DOOM II, and it ends there. Everything else is secondary.


I figure Final Doom at least gets some authority as far as the story is concerned, because Id published it.

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I agree Myk. Also, I don't know about you Not Jabba, but when I played Doom2 back in '94 for the first time that 'wall' was pretty damn terrifying.

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Final Doom really doesnt add much to the storyline IMO. I tend to keep ID as offical. Also Not Jabba, id claimed they had as little to do with Final Doom as they did with The Master Levels. That was all GT Interactives doing.

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All official business aside, I think fans are perfectly able to pick and choose what storylines out there they can dissect and work with to make their own conclusions to the plot.

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If you are looking for a doomy boss battle, you can try my "Icon of Sin Patch", nothing special there but can provide you with some fun. You can look in the archives for icon_p.zip

But yeah, I allways expected for some new boss, face that wall, can't satisfy me (mmm, that sounds bad, isn't it?). In Final DOOM (Wich I consider part of the story) I expected to see a new boss as the Gate Keeper, some kind of minotaur, or stronger cyberdemon, near a large gate, not that boring icon of sin again.

The Motherdemon is probably the closest you can get to what you want (I'd love to see it converted into classic DOOM).
I don't need some sort of ultra powerful demon leader, that while'd be cool, would have a low re usesable value (like Eidolon, Makron, D'Sparil, Korax, and all the big bads), I want just something else to see in the wads besides the Cyberdemon or the Spidermastermind, with the same quality and legitimity of the original monsters.

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I guess my problem is that there were a few years between the release of Final Doom and the time I actually bought it, during which time I didn't realize that it was just a cool WAD that somebody made and Id liked enough to publish. Instead, I had assumed that it was a fully-fledged sequel, created by the Id guys themselves. For those few years, I expected there to be a story beyond the end of Doom 2. I guess I've never really gotten out of that mindset.

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I always had a pretty unique standpoint, concering this subject. The ending screen of DoomII says something like "The horrendous visage of the biggest demon, you've ever seen..."
So I always regarded the wall as only an image of the overlord, who is behind all the evil invasions. The real demon sits somewhere in his dimension, sends forth his legions and was too lazy to come to earth himself, so he created a visage of his and put it in hell (on earth).

So, when Doom3 was announced, I was looking forward to kill the real demon (whose face was in Doom2). I never wanted Doom3 to be a remake, I've always been considering it to be a sequel - and I still do! The reason for this is simple: Doom3 pretends, that Doom and Doom2 never happened. And by all means - I can't do that!!!

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Deathmatcher said:

Doom3 pretends, that Doom and Doom2 never happened. And by all means - I can't do that!!!


And who can be expected to. Pretend two of the best PC games in history just didn't happen? Uh...no.

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Heh, an idea struck me.

What if Satan IS Hell in the DOOM universe?
Like, Satan is everywhere in Hell - he's the entire world known as 'Hell'.

I've never really felt the Hell portrayed in Doom had anything to do with the Hell in the bible - I always considered it to be a Hell different from what Man had always thought.

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dsm said:

Heh, an idea struck me.

What if Satan IS Hell in the DOOM universe?
Like, Satan is everywhere in Hell - he's the entire world known as 'Hell'.


Sure would make him tough to destroy, but that's a pretty cool idea.

dsm said:

I've never really felt the Hell portrayed in Doom had anything to do with the Hell in the bible - I always considered it to be a Hell different from what Man had always thought.


Sure, but somebody would still have to be in charge of it, right? Whether it was Satan or not, or whatever form it took.

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Not Jabba said:

Sure, but somebody would still have to be in charge of it, right? Whether it was Satan or not, or whatever form it took.

No question about that - the Icon of Sin is most definitely in charge of all the other demons you 'play with' in the Doom games ;-)

And if we go with my idea, Satan (Hell) would be the supreme authority in Hell with the Icon being the one who passes his orders onto the underlings. I don't think Satan will need to be defeated to stop the forces of Hell - killing the Icon would be enough of a setback I should think.

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First of all didn't someone say on the forum they were making a hell on earth mod for Doom3, suggest this to them( the idea of an actual demon lord or satan or what ever. The idea of going to hell to fight the devil himself would be cool. Should be big like a cyber demon with the icon;s face.
My opinion, given the doom engine logically I think ID wanted the Icon to be Satan but because of engine limitations it would have been horribly pixelated or crappy looking if they put the Icon's face on a new monster. I think the wall idea was there way around the idea of making an actual boss monster.
Who knows some people say John Romero is the devil and his head was the basis of the Icon of sin being he created hell and the great FPS series of all time.

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Alt Control Delete said:

Who knows some people say John Romero is the devil and his head was the basis of the Icon of sin being he created hell and the great FPS series of all time.


No,They are saying that because the Icon Of Sin is actually a sprite of John Romero's head.It's just hidden behind a wall.

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Someone should make a monster that fires a spawn-cube instead of fireballs. Make him pop other demons right before your face!

Is it in any way possible to edit the spawn/probability list of the spawncubes? Would be cool to add new monsters to it for a change. I can see it now... Cybers and Spiders all the way! Oh, and maybe former humans so you don't run out of ammunition.

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Caco-Puff said:

No,They are saying that because the Icon Of Sin is actually a sprite of John Romero's head.It's just hidden behind a wall.



An exact fact, thank you Caco- I was begining to feel I was the only one who ventured that deep.

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I never really beat Doom 2 by the legit way :P

dsm: I was thinking _exactly_ that when I started reading your post, so I guess we agree! :) Though Doom 3 kind of destroys that idea.

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Well, if there's every a doom 3 expansion based on doom 2, hopefully the icon will be an actual 40 story tall demon. :D

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dsm said:

Heh, an idea struck me.

What if Satan IS Hell in the DOOM universe?
Like, Satan is everywhere in Hell - he's the entire world known as 'Hell'.

Good idea IMO. Like the whole place is actually the entity of evil (sorta). That would explaing different flesh and organic parts in hell-parts of one huge creature, essence of evil, hell o_O

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spank said:

dsm: I was thinking _exactly_ that when I started reading your post, so I guess we agree! :) Though Doom 3 kind of destroys that idea.

Why would Doom 3 destroy the idea that Satan is Hell itself?
Because of that evil voice thingy or what?

The thing is, it's never really revealed who the owner of that voice is, so it could be everything really.

Or are you talking about another idea which I don't remember now?

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