Phobos Action Ahoy!

[Fredrik]

Scuba Steve said:

So wait, what constitutes "Episode 1 themed" then if this doesn't?

Romero had an incredible sense for how to give a room the right sense of space. There is no redundant detail. Instead, there is a delicate attention to proportion and structure. There is something memorable and original about pretty much every location. The architecture itself adds atmosphere.

That kind of impression is missing from pretty much all "classic" levels I've played, though there are exceptions (which to me prove that I'm not all blinded by nostalgia). For example, The Classic Episode has some individual rooms that look like they could've been taken taken straight out of an imaginary 10th Knee-Deep in the Dead level. Meanwhile, 2002: A Doom Odyssey, though using the same texture scheme, barely has anything interesting.

I've already mentioned redundant detail, which Bloodskull's level appears to be full of. Those 8-unit-thick supports and 4-units-deep holes in the ground scream out lack of creative thinking.

Another factor is diagonal walls. They are an extremely powerful tool for making architecture interesting, and Romero used them extensively. In Knee-Deep in the Dead, 30% of all wall distance is employed diagonally. The numbers for Classic and 2002: ADO are, in respective order, 13% and 19%. If you also ignore 45°-walls, the numbers are 22%, 8% and 6%. Many "classic" levels are significantly worse. And what I see in Bloodskull's shots is typical of these "classic" levels: virtually no non-orthogonal architecture, but a few 45°-angled decorations.

I might as well nitpick about the use of non-e1 textures and monsters but you probably already knew that.

Actually there are many other issues. Instead of me trying to express them in words, why not have have a look at my e1 contest map? It's crappy (you don't have to bug me about that), but I believe it adequately expresses some of my thinking about "e1 style".

[Nmn]

Romero also seemed to have a specific sentiment for symmetry. Plenty of larger rooms are either symmetic or almost symmetric.

[Xenaero]

This map sucks, I beat it on UV the first time though, HAR HAR. :D

[Use]

Fredrik said:

"e1 style"

Nice post, I agree completely, redundant detail and mindless layouts are too prevalent.

[Chronoteeth]

God damn I still love that horizon after 11 years!

[Jacknife]

Chris Hansen said:

Now that's a joke, right!? Tell me it's a joke, damn it!

Shit, I forgot about the different texture set. Whatever. Just forget it.

[ellmo]

Fredrik said:

Romero had an incredible sense for how to give a room the right sense of space. There is no redundant detail. Instead, there is a delicate attention to proportion and structure. There is something memorable and original about pretty much every location. The architecture itself adds atmosphere.

I really think you're overinterpreting it. You sound like my polsih teacher, who tries to convince his students, that a poem is remarkable because of it's incredible depth, insane amount of connections to reality of the times it was written. That we are just too shallow to understand it, and that there is 1000 times much more concealed senses, that we could ever see.

E1 has the atmosphere, because it was the first episode ever saw to many, many, many Doomers (shame on those who started out with Doom2), and you will always try to find undisputable resemblances to it in every WAD that is said to be E1 stylish, but there simply can't be another E1. People sometimes get really close to "KDITD", sometimes they don't no matter how hard they try, because they always put their own style in it. Nothing more about it, methinks.

And Bloodskull's WAD really looks E1 stylish to me. Though it will never be E1.

[Fredrik]

Then how come I've played PWADs that strike me as being similarly brilliant (though they're extremely rare)?

[ellmo]

Fredrik said:

Then how come I've played PWADs that strike me as being similarly brilliant (though they're extremely rare)?

That are the ones, which got as close as it gets. But they're ain't Romero's E1, are they?

Duh, we all have our own opinions on various styles, and that makes it more interesting. Let's not convince each other that someone is right while the others are wrong. We're human beings.

[Fredrik]

ellmo said:

That are the ones, which got as close as it gets. But they're ain't Romero's E1, are they?

As I've already said, I've seen level fragments that are stylistically close enough, and whole levels that are good ("deep") enough (though incidentally none in the E1 theme).

Let's not convince each other that someone is right while the others are wrong.

Like you're trying to do right now?

Besides, after all, the only purpose of discussion is to win, not to develop and share your thoughts for the intellectual benefit of all participants.

[ellmo]

Fredrik said:

Besides, after all, the only purpose of discussion is to win, not to develop and share your thoughts for the intellectual benefit of all participants.

Allright then...
THIS is really looking like E1!
I'm teh win ^_^

[MikeyScoots]

ellmo said:

Allright then...
THIS is really looking like E1!
I'm teh win ^_^

Thanks. You just earned yourself another screenshot!


This right here is the area right before you face the final battle against the Barons and Cacodemons, leading to a small outside area with sarges and imps. Level ends in a similiar way to E1m8 wih the stairway.

[Xenaero]

All those ceilings going unused :(

[MikeyScoots]

DD_133 said:

All those ceilings going unused :(

Calm down dammit, I'm working on it.

[.:DartmerC:.]

sorry.. that last screenshot turned me from thinking this was a nice e1 style map into thinking something completely different.

[188DarkRevived]

The latest screenshot looks more like E2:The Shores of Hell, the Deimos Anomaly....
But then again, that's only my opinion, and it doesn't mean that you should stop doing what you're doing. Staying traditional to only one particular theme can feel extremely difficult sometimes....But either way, the actual finished product will still be downloaded :)

[MikeyScoots]

DarkJedi188 said:

The latest screenshot looks more like E2:The Shores of Hell, the Deimos Anomaly....

Points at direction to my post of a possible episode replacement, and how the level ends in the E2mish way.

[NiGHTMARE]

Looks rather E1M8-ish to me.

[MikeyScoots]

Official Release of Phobos Strike can be grabbed here: freewebs.com/bloodskull04/phobosstrike.zip
Copy paste link into browser and enjoy.

[188DarkRevived]

Thanks.
I downloaded it immediatley, but I'm gonna fully check it out later this week when I have more time.
Submit it to the /idgames archives for more direct publicity now :)

[Dark_Shadow4002]

I don't understand all teh fuss about "not e1ish" it looks like an e1 style map...but "e1 style" is a relative term. Though the original maps are cool and unique, and that is what made them really cool. BUT to be honest the "theme" of making an E1M1 map true to "Knee Deep in the Dead" is QUITE difficult, hell i've tried..i was going to do that on my project..BUT it got WAY off track. I understand that there is a specific "way" to make e1 style maps, but its all a matter of interpretation by others.

No one person is right nor is anyone wrong in their assumptions. Everyone will interperate the styling they way they think it is, since honestly noone can recreate e1m1 for the reason someone stated earlier "it was the FIRST we ever saw" Styling was simplistic back then i mean hell maps only have 200 sectors lol. Its kinda hard to make a great map in 250 sectors or less...IMO. But thats me i am an extrememist. But to say this map does not fit the E1 theme is just a matter of opinion. I personally see some representation of it though not complete and utter E1, if that were the case jsut copy the orginal maps and change a wall or 2 and whola you got a true to the theme map!

Eitherway, i threw in my 2 cents, but i think it is a nice set of maps. Good job for your work.

[Use]

Okay I played it. I went into this map not being judgemental or anything and here's what I think.

This is not an E1 map. This is a Bloodskull map with E1 textures randomly thrown about. It's layout and progression feels just like one of his skulltag maps with some haphazzard single player elements tossed in.
Poor texture choices result in some areas looking rough, textures are not used in proper spaces so they tile strangely adding to the sketchy look of the place.
There are a few hangups with flow, namely the room where you open the blue/yellow doors. This room is annoying and really doesn't help the pace of the level at all. I also don't understand the big main room where the blue key sits. There's an acid pit here that blocks the player from falling in for no apparent reason.
I also found many small noobish errors that were missed just because Bloodskull was clearly rushing to release this thing, like unpegged doortracks and strange player blocks in a later acid pit that uses the STONE texture, also noted that this acid pit does no damage. There's also an outside area that looks bad because the sky clips the architecture, easily avoidable with a little effort. Also caught in the 'rush' are a few bad x-offsets and more unfit texture choices.

Overall this map is pretty much blah.

[The Flange Peddler]

Had a quick playthrough. Seems to me to be a map of two halfs - some parts look and play ok, the others seem rushed.

As I played through the first few rooms I thought Use3d was being a bit harsh. The textures seemed fine to me, but later on (say after the blue key door), things got quite a bit worse. With some weird texture combinations and some (easily fixed) alignment errors. Generally also the sectors seemed to be of an odd height, clipping the textures at the top or bottom. This mainly happens with the various star* textures.

That room with the switches for the various keys makes no sense at all to me, and really screws up the flow of the level as Use3d said. Especially having to backtrack halfway through the level to open the red door seems completely unnecessary (and in general I found some of the remote switching to be a bit excessive and pointless). A few of the rooms were also a bit square and uninspired. That old 'monsters-popping-up-from-the-floor' trick was also used a bit too often.

In all, some of the parts I think are actually ok. But there are others which don't seem to have had much thought put into them, and end up looking very rushed. I do think you're generally getting better though, just don't worry about taking your time.

[MikeyScoots]

I won't be able to fix anything until Saturday because I got grounded for 3 days. I'll see what I can do about fixing some stuff up(thankfully I didn't submit to incoming just yet). Gotta use the school computers like I am now so I g2g before I get caught. Peace out.

[Fletcher`]

Bloodskull said:

I won't be able to fix anything until Saturday because I got grounded for 3 days. I'll see what I can do about fixing some stuff up(thankfully I didn't submit to incoming just yet). Gotta use the school computers like I am now so I g2g before I get caught. Peace out.

You are the definition of suck.

[ellmo]

ravage said:

You are the definition of suck.

And you just insult someone to make him insulted...

[.:DartmerC:.]

I agree ellmo because you have an awesome avatar.

[188DarkRevived]

Ok, I played it now.
Took me about 26 minutes to complete.
The overall layout and the use of triggers was fairly decent, but the texturing was a bit misalligned, mismatched and slightly sloppy in a few places...
One final word: the secret area with the green armor vest is just way too obvious to be a secret area...Hide that armor vest better :)

[ellmo]

But still, after those last shots you've presented, Bloodskull, it's not E1 anymore.

[MikeyScoots]

And I'm not grounded anymore. Aight lemme just fix up the key room as almost everyone hated that idea. On a second note I'm trying to get better at making sp maps and will try something new and innotive when I crack open db again. Since it's friday I'll have to wait till next week to get it reviewed.