Evil Exposed Itself

[Enjay]

NiGHTMARE said:

Re: an earlier comment in this thread. If a game doesn't appeal to you personally, but does appeal to the majority of people who've played it, it hasn't "failed in it's purpose".

Fair comment. I'm still not convinced in this case that Doom3 has appealed to the majority of those who have played it though. Outwith the Doom community, most of the people I know who have played it disliked it, or at best found it dull. But perhaps non-doomers should not be expected to enjoy it as much as doomers. Conversely, you could say that if someone thought they were probably going to like it enough to pay for it, then you already have an audience that should be quite receptive by default - and the fact that so many of that audience didn't enjoy it as much as they should is maybe an indication that the game isn't as good as it should have been.

Or possibly more subtle - perhaps it has appealed to people, but wasn't as good as it should have been. I didn't hate playing Doom3. I quite enjoyed bits of it but I thought it fell a long way short of being a good game. Id (time and time again) promised the best game ever. They didn't come even close to delivering it - and very few reviews or opinions dispute that.

I have often thought about making a WAD that has Doom3 style gameplay and seeing how good a reception it gets. You know - too dark, most monsters teleporting in either side of you every time you go round a corner and all the other stuff... Irritating as hell I suspect.

I admire a lot of Doom3. Technically it is superb. It's very pretty. These things do not make a good game. Its gameplay is dull, uninspired and repetative, the levels are excessively samey and a lot of the enemies are annoying. These make it not a fun experience. These things are why I have deleted it and it's because Doom does not have these annoyances and actually excels in these areas that it is still on my HD after 11 years.

[Szymanski]

If they address the less than stellar gameplay of Doom3 I might get it, possibly. It wouldn't take much to put the fun back.

[Snarboo]

What bothers me more than the whining is that we have to give everything a cynical spin that id tells us. "Oh noes, Tim Willits is a money grubbing bastard! He doesn't listen to the fans, he's a liar, boohoo." That kind of stuff. I have no problems with hating something, it's when you appear to get a masturbatory level of pressure from complaining so much that irks me.

[Enjay]

Snarboo said:

What bothers me more than the whining is that we have to give everything a cynical spin that id tells us. "Oh noes, Tim Willits is a money grubbing bastard! He doesn't listen to the fans, he's a liar, boohoo." That kind of stuff. I have no problems with hating something, it's when you appear to get a masturbatory level of pressure from complaining so much that irks me.

Sigh! No masturbatory pleasure in complaining here. I'd much rather complaining was not needed. I'd rather the game had been fantastic and I'd rather Willits was treating me like a human being.

However, when a company front-man comes out with stereotypical company front-man clichés about how he is listening to the fans and then (amazingly) in the next breath says he is going to ignore them, what am I supposed to say?

I mean, come on. How many times have you seen some front-guy smile to the camera and then say "of course we are going to listen to (insert appropriate customer euphemism here), of course their views are important, we like to think we have a positive partnership with our (euphemism)"?

[Kaiser]

Enjay said:

Gaming seems to be taking a turn for the "lets make it pretty but boring" side. The only option for "moving on" seems to be to play an 11 year old game rather than the newest offerings. Whilst I'm actually quite happy with that, it doesn't seem like moving on. :-(

Usually I don't argue because I tend to say something stupid, but I am going to have to agree with Enjay.

*/me jumps on the whine/bitching bandwagon
The whole thing is all about money and they would care less about making a fun game, as long its pretty and gets attention, nothing else matters. And this also applies to all games today. The expansion is just another money grabber, and the gravity gun is just another attention getter because it was the main attraction in Half Life 2.

But like Enjay said, I am still going to try out the expansion and see for myself if they have been listening or not.

[Jacknife]

Kaiser said:

The whole thing is all about money and they would care less about making a fun game, as long its pretty and gets attention, nothing else matters.

I feel that way about EA Games, since a lot of their games look pretty but suck. Namely that 3rd person bond game.

[Snarboo]

Enjay said:

Sigh! No masturbatory pleasure in complaining here. I'd much rather complaining was not needed. I'd rather the game had been fantastic and I'd rather Willits was treating me like a human being.

Then why complain? I never understood why some people rampantly complain about something when they openly admit it might just be the worst experience of their life. Why open old wounds, why bring back such terrible memories if there is nothing in it? You hate/dislike the game, we get it. Get over it and move on.

As for Tim Willits, would you rather he openly admit that he rapes babies and eats the souls of children on a regular basis? Of course he's going to say some PR bullshit. Is that some sort of revelation to you? It seems like you're shocked, and yet you claim to see it all the time. Every company does this, yes, even ID. They are just a *GASP!*, company after all. They're trying to make money how they want to.

I try not to take something a company does or says to me to heart because I know they don't care about me, they just want my money. Likewise, I give them my money when I see fit and just enjoy it as best I can. If it sucks, shame on me for not doing my job as a consumer and researching their product. That's how capitalism works.

[Enjay]

Snarboo said:

Then why complain?

Already explained. I bought it, I played it, I'm a fan, I care about Doom and feel a comment is required. If I'd loved the game I would also have said so - but I didn't. Also, with Mr Willits is coming out with comments like that, in my own small way I feel it is my duty to call him on it. Remember, he is listening. :rolleyes:

Why open old wounds, why bring back such terrible memories if there is nothing in it?

Also kind of already covered. This is a Doom forum and Doom3 is still being discussed here. I am a member of this community. Why shouldn't I discuss it here? Should I discuss something else instead? If the people who like it can still take masturbatory pleasure in spooging all over the game, telling me how great it is, why can't I give the counter argument?

Also, the wounds are hardly deep and the experience is not so terrible as to leave me emotionally scarred. It's only a game. But this place is here for us to discuss that game - so that's what I'm discussing. If you want to discuss truly wounding, terrible experiences, I can do that - but this isn't the place.

You hate/dislike the game, we get it. Get over it and move on.

Fine, every responsonse in this thread, aside from the first, I have made has been in answer to someone posting about my comments. I am responding to them, and reiterating my opinions where relevant. If my point got across in the first post great. However, you yourself have just asked me some questions and told me what to do. That requires a response.

As for Tim Willits, would you rather he openly admit that he rapes babies and eats the souls of children on a regular basis? Of course he's going to say some PR bullshit. Is that some sort of revelation to you? It seems like you're shocked, and yet you claim to see it all the time. Every company does this, yes, even ID. They are just a *GASP!*, company after all. They're trying to make money how they want to.

Don't be silly - and of course it's not a surprise. But what am I supposed to do? Suck it down? No, he's bullshitting me. I'll call him on it. Others have too.

I try not to take something a company does or says to me to heart because I know they don't care about me, they just want my money. Likewise, I give them my money when I see fit and just enjoy it as best I can. If it sucks, shame on me for not doing my job as a consumer and researching their product. That's how capitalism works.

I too do not take it to heart. All I was saying was that Willits was taking a typical PR bullshit stance. He bullshitted me, I said I'd spotted it and called him a bullshitter now I want to move on, but people keep asking me why I said it and making assumptions about why I did. :-P Also, companies that really do care about their customers have better customer relations and tend to benefit from them. That's also part of how capitalism works. I'm constantly seeing comments in these forums about how id are different, about how they do care. Those differences seem to be reducing and Mr Willits seems to be the front man for that "initiative".

[Graf Zahl]

Snarboo said:

Then why complain? I never understood why some people rampantly complain about something when they openly admit it might just be the worst experience of their life. Why open old wounds, why bring back such terrible memories if there is nothing in it? You hate/dislike the game, we get it. Get over it and move on.

As for Tim Willits, would you rather he openly admit that he rapes babies and eats the souls of children on a regular basis? Of course he's going to say some PR bullshit. Is that some sort of revelation to you? It seems like you're shocked, and yet you claim to see it all the time. Every company does this, yes, even ID. They are just a *GASP!*, company after all. They're trying to make money how they want to.

I try not to take something a company does or says to me to heart because I know they don't care about me, they just want my money. Likewise, I give them my money when I see fit and just enjoy it as best I can. If it sucks, shame on me for not doing my job as a consumer and researching their product. That's how capitalism works.

Great!

So everybody should shut up, treat id as gods and take everything they do as given. No, thank you! Without criticism there is no improvement and the next game will suffer from it. If I don't like something I say it in the hope that the people responsible will listen and do something about it.

I found Doom3 an unbelievably dull and repetitive gaming experience and in the end I couldn't even motivate myself to play it through. I'm sorry do offend some immature fanboys with that but I can't help it. Even id isn't above criticism.

[NiGHTMARE]

What if every single time there were a thread discussing Doom 1 or 2, someone came along with a post like "the original Doom sucks, the graphics were terrible even for the time it was released, the level designers never even heard of texture alignment, even the Sims has better gameplay, the weapons look like whats in my pants, Sandy Peterson must be colour blind, blah blah blah whine moan bitch"?

Don't you think that would start to get on your nerves rather quickly? The same goes for those of us who actually enjoy playing Doom 3 - it's really annoying when you're trying to have a sensible, rational discussion about the game and someone decides to come along and start yet another rant, and the entire thread gets derailed because of it.

If you want to complain for the ten millionth time, why not start a new thread on the subject, so those of us who hate all the constant whining don't have to see it?

[Szymanski]

NiGHTMARE said:

Don't you think that would start to get on your nerves rather quickly?

Either grow some balls or ignore it, your choice.

[NiGHTMARE]

Next time try reading an entire post before replying to it, eh Mr. Big Balls? :P

As I said, every time it happens it turns the entire thread into a big argument. Considering it happens a lot (pretty much every single D3-related news item, and others beside), how exactly can it possibly be ignored?

Anyway, why is it perfectly acceptable to constantly whine about Doom 3, yet we're apparently not allowed to complain about the people who constantly whine about Doom 3? Begins with "hypo", ends with "critical".

Oh, and it's the people who're complaing about all the anti-D3 whining who need to grow some balls? ROFL. We're not the ones acting like spoiled, whiny little two year old brats, that would be the moan brigade!

If you think telling bitchy little kids to shut the heck up isn't man enough, what would you suggest instead? Pull their pants down and smack their arses until they're black and blue? Unfortunately, we're not allowed to do that anymore ;).

[Szymanski]

If it gets out of hand the moderators will take care of it.

There are a lot of mixed reactions to Doom3, as there is with DV, Alien vendetta and even Doom2. The expansion pack could address some of the 'faults' of Doom3, and of course they will be discussed.

It's the internet, nothing to get upset over.

[Enjay]

Well in this case, I think a post from someone who thinks Doom3 could have been much better was entirely justified. I haven't taken the chance to post negative comments in every Doom3 thread since its release. That would be silly, annoying, un-called for and excessive. I did post in a few threads when Doom3 was new (mainly in threads titled something like - "so what did you think?") and now I rarely even look at the Doom3 forum. I made my points and moved on.

However, this was a front page news item refering to an article where a new product was being discussed and where Tim Willits was making comments about company policy on fan input. I made brief comments on these and have been answering questions on my comments ever since. I have never just made a "Doom3 is teh suck" post. I have clearly identified what I didn't like and what I felt the improvents could be. I did not go into detail here because I didn't feel it was appropriate and I didn't see the need to repeat myself and clutter up the thread with details that I had already posted elsewhere. I addressed specific points from the article and I thought it was worth doing so. I still do.


As for the question about original Doom and what would it be like if people made posts of the kind you mention. Yes, that would be annoying but there is a difference. Doom3 is the latest installment of the game that this site was already set up to discuss. Doom3 is still in development - ie engine patches and expansion packs. Id software are (apparently) listening to us about it so apparently we have the ability to comment and be heard. Shouldn't we do so? As I said, if people have identified problem areas, then perhaps their comments are more valuable. Specific points get raised and id can decide how to deal with them. I don't mean they have to be implemented, but if they are mentioned than they can at least be considered. If the only people talking are posting fanboy sycophantism, then id will have nothing to consider.


The original Doom is not in development, id are not going to go back and change it. Posting about it sucking would be of limited value and very troll like. The posts would be aimed at the people who like the game and who have come together to discuss it. It would mean the the poster was turning up and calling the people here a bunch of sad geeks or something. I'm not aiming my comments at the fans of Doom3. In this thread I actually said very little about the game in my initial comment. I merely expressed my hope that id would improve on the game so that I could enjoy the next bit more. IMO, the newest incarnation of Doom fell woefully short of what I hoped it would be and what id promised me it would be. Id are still working on it. If they are listening, should I not say as much? I did say as much - in a simple, short post. Ever since my motivation for doing so has been questioned and the specifics of what I had posted has also been questioned. I have answered.

[NiGHTMARE]

If you don't believe that ID really are listening to the fans, then surely by complaing about the game all you're doing is trolling?

If you do think they listen, wouldn't there be a bigger chance of ID even noticing your comments by sending them in an e-mail rather than posting them in some obscure (to ID staff members) website somewhere?

[Enjay]

NiGHTMARE said:

If you don't believe that ID really are listening to the fans, then surely by complaing about the game all you're doing is trolling?

Heh, I knew someone would say that. :-) Yes, you're probably right. However, if they've asked I may as well oblige them by talking.

If you do think they listen, wouldn't there be a bigger chance of ID even noticing your comments by sending them in an e-mail rather than posting them in some obscure (to ID staff members) website somewhere?

Probably but I prefer this more comfortable, familiar environment and public forum. Personal choice. And if they are listening, then if they really want to listen to the fans then perhaps they will seek out opinion on the internet's leading Doom fan site.

[NiGHTMARE]

While Doomworld may be the best Doom related site, I very much doubt it gets anywhere near the number of visitors as Planet Doom or Doom 3 Files ;).

[Enjay]

True, true. :-(

[myk]

Don't worry; quality over quantity.

The thing is, this is mostly a DOOM and DOOM II site. You can tell by the fact that not long after the release of DOOM 3, the Classic Doom Forums were moved on top again, among (obviously) other things. So don't expect it to be given so much slack here. Opinions will be broader than in an actual DOOM 3 site.

Also, well-put and civil posts expressing a generally negative opinion are not "whining." Posts countering them with their own points can be okay too, but posts claiming the former are "whining" certainly are rather fretfully childish.

/me kicks DOOM 3 and its expansions in the balls.

[NiGHTMARE]

When almost every D3 related thread descends into D3 bashing, it most certainly is whining.

[Snarboo]

I haven't even played Doom III yet, so I don't even know if I'll like it. I might be in the same camp as most of the members here concerning it, however, I'm not going to be hopelessly pessimistic and take everything id says as some sort of insult or with a cynical twist. I don't care if Tim Willits is a liar, I don't care if id are money grubbing bastards, it's their company, they can do what they feel like within the law. Does that mean I'm going to blindly worship them? Hell no, if id releases a crap game, I'll think twice about buying another one rather than complain on a forum about my poor purchase decision.

It's amazing that so many of you complain about id "taking" your money or lying to when you could have returned the game. It's not like id held you at gunpoint to buy Doom III. It's your money, folks. If you fail to do the research and buy impulsively, you only have yourself to blame. I can sympathize with being misled, and you have every right to voice your opinion about it, but not in every thread concerning an id news story. I just get sick of all you negative spin doctors. Id isn't some gaming pariah just because they released an arguably inferior spiritual successor to Doom.

[Job]

myk said:

Also, well-put and civil posts expressing a generally negative opinion are not "whining."

/me kicks DOOM 3 and its expansions in the balls.

Heh, nice.

Snarboo said:

It's amazing that so many of you complain about id "taking" your money or lying to when you could have returned the game.

I'm hard pressed to think of any store or chain that allows for the return of PC software. Exchange, maybe. Return? Not likely. So anyone who bought Doom 3 and felt cheated is pretty much boned, short of selling their copy to someone who actually does want it.

[NiGHTMARE]

Demos exist for a reason.

[zombiecommando]

First off no one is forcing people to like doom 3 i loved it and im pumped for the expansion like other people i want to see a doom 4 but have it take place after doom 2

[Snarboo]

Job said:

I'm hard pressed to think of any store or chain that allows for the return of PC software. Exchange, maybe. Return? Not likely. So anyone who bought Doom 3 and felt cheated is pretty much boned, short of selling their copy to someone who actually does want it.

Worst case scenario, you could always sell the game back to the store used. You wouldn't get as much money for returning it like that, but you would still get some of it back. However, it's really not id's job to advertise the game, that's Activision's as far as I can tell. So if you have issues with how the game is advertised or felt cheated/misled because of it, it'd probably be best to take that up with Activision. As for Tim Willits, he's doing his job, which is to please the fans and keep them sated. Id isn't acting like Romero or Ion Storm did with Daikatana by constantly pimping the game on message boards, so I don't understand the whole "misled" or "lied to" mentality some people have or imply.

Anyway, my whole beef from the beginning is how everybody immediately called Tim Willits a liar from the start. How do we know if id listens to the fans or not? How do we know Tim Willits isn't stretching the truth? We don't, so why jump to the conclusion that he's a liar? It might be a bad move on his part to claim something that might not be true, but with all the shit the fans have been giving id over Doom III and the Doom movie, I wouldn't be surprised if they are watching the fan base a little more closely. No company is an island, after all.