Backwards legs (mysterey solved)

[Shapeless]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v96/Nataniel/doomguy.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v96/Nataniel/adrian.jpg

notice the original doom models have the same base?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v96/Nataniel/IMG_1402.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v96/Nataniel/IMG_1404.jpg

I say they used those manaqee's as a base so they could reposition them. sort of like a stop motion puppet. Maybe that's why they hired Greg Punchatz to do the stop motion models for doom. And perhaps the backward legs weren't design, but rather they had no choice using the art manaqins.

[Enjay]

They're not backwards legs. Many animals have legs arranged like that. The foot bones are extended compared to ours and the "knee" is actually the back of the foot. The true knee is therefor much higher up.

But maybe they did use a model like the one in the pic to get the basic shape. So, from a certain point of view, they could be backwards.

Pig example...

http://www.vetmed.iastate.edu/departments/vdpam/swine/basics/anatomy/locomotor/hindleg.asp

[MasterOFDeath]

Heh, makes sense for a biology teacher to awnser something like this Enjay. :P

[Enjay]

:D

[Shapeless]

your right about the pig legs. But I'm talking about the Baron of hell, who's legs go back then foreward ending with a hoof. if they were anatomically correct they would go foreward, then back ending with the heel then forward again.

[exp(x)]

What exactly is an anatomically correct version of a hellspawn? I don't remember ever studying them in school.

[Shapeless]

we'er talking about pig legs. as far as I know they are not hell spawn, but Catholics beleave that Jesus did place the spirit of the devil in a piggy.

but you'er right the backward legs could be intentional. he did after all base the clay model off a sketch.

[exp(x)]

Shapeless said:
we'er talking about pig legs.

I'm talking about Baron of Hell legs.

[Shapeless]

"I'm talking about Baron of Hell legs."

So am I. Enjay brought up the pigs :D

[Enjay]

Okay okay. Pigs were the first picture I could find. :rolleyes: Think horse hind legs!

A horse has a single hoof on an elongated digit and the other digits are much smaller or non-existent. It has a backwards "knee" which is actually the back of its foot. It's true knee is just below the muscled part of the body and it has a short femur between the knee and the hip making it look, to the casual glance, like it's not there and that the knee is actually the hip.

http://www.circlerranch.com/crcimages/asideskeleton.gif

Birds have the most obvious "backwards" legs (but no hoof). However, dig below the surface and you'll see a series of joints in the normal order. The toes are an odd arrangement. The backwards "knee" is still really the back of the foot. The true knee is just below the body and, again, the femur is pretty well hidden by the body and musculature.

http://faculty.clintoncc.suny.edu/faculty/Michael.Gregory/files/Bio%20102/Bio%20102%20lectures/animal%20diversity/deuterostomes/bird_skeleton3.jpg

http://www.danielsprick.com/images/full/Bird-Skeleton.jpg

So, "backwards" legs are not unusual. As for hellspawn - who knows?

[edit]Oh, and it's probably worth mentioning that goats are similar - seeing as how hellspawn are often supposed to be "goat like" but they have cloven hoofs.

http://www.imagecyte.com/images/goatskeletonthmb.jpg [/edit]

[larsboy]

Cool info, nice to learn something on a Doom forum :-)

Oh, and the reason the devil and his hellspawn were portrayed with goat-like legs, is that before christianity a goat/man hybrid was a common form of god, like Pan for instance. When christinaty wanted to be the only right belief, all other beliefs were portrayed as evil, so that symbols like the goatman and the pentagram, which used to be good, were used as symbols of evil. Basic PR, really.

[m0l0t0v]

IIRC, Satan was an ancient Egyptian god that protected mankind against the other gods.
The Christians didn't want people to ask Satan for help against their God, so they depicted him as evil.

----
About the legs:
The legs of the Baron and Hell Knight are probably based on goat legs, but they miss the upper leg part, that goats have. Furthermore their hoofs appear to be more like those of a horse. Goats have hoofs that are split in 2.

Perhaps Adrian Carmack should have paid more attention during biology class :-)

[myk]

m0l0t0v said:
IIRC, Satan was an ancient Egyptian god that protected mankind against the other gods.
The Christians didn't want people to ask Satan for help against their God, so they depicted him as evil.

Pretty romantic, but I doubt it... what god would that be? Plus, the Christians and Egyptians aren't from the same period. One of the branches of the Church of Satan seems to be called the Temple of Set... perhaps this myth of yours stems from there? Probably not directly, anyway. Satan seems to be a personification of a hebrew noun anyway, eventually talking all sorts of influences, to create a somewhat defined character.

[Piezo]

Shapeless said:

Catholics beleave that Jesus did place the spirit of the devil in a piggy.

"My name is Legion, for we are many!"
The first time I heard that was on Shadow Man. Man I got tired of hearing that guy say that. :P

[ellmo]

m0l0t0v said:

The legs of the Baron and Hell Knight are probably based on goat legs, but they miss the upper leg part, that goats have.

AMEN, m0l0t0v... exactly what I wanted to say. Those "backward legged" Barons don't have the part corresponding to our thighs, like my cat has. And to avoid further misunderstanding: their hoofs, aren't evolved feet, but evolved toes and toenails. Their feet is the part of the leg, between the hoofs and what we could call the "backward knees"...

[Shapeless]

I don't need an anatomy lesson about the legs of animals. you guys are right about everthing your saying about the pig, goat, cat.... freaking legs :) what I'm trying to say is. that upper part was probably missed due to the use of sculpting over an art Manaqee. of couse it could be intentional they are hell spawn and don't have to obly by normal rules. But it's worth discussing. Did Adrain intentionally design the barron with backward legs, or did he just addapt to sculpting over an possable manaqin?

[fraggle]

I dont think so.

[Enjay]

As for why the legs are "backwards" - because they look goaty and he was going for the half goaty satyr look. As for why they do not seem to have the upper part - only Adrian knows. Artistic license? It looked right to him? The "full leg" looked clumsy or wrong? Most cartoon characters, for example, only have 3 fingers and a thumb because a 5 digit hand looks clumsy when drawn in a cartoony style.

As for why single hooves instead of cloven ones? Same answer.

As for whether he used a mannequin or not - we can only guess. The people around id at the time would know. Perhaps ask this over at the rome.ro forums?

Despite the fact the picture is a bit crap, and he's wearing blue shorts, this maybe, kinda looks a little, little bit like the baron might have done with full goaty legs.

http://freespace.virgin.net/michael.cugley/Art/Bitmaps/satyr-brush.gif

[deathbringer]

"My name is Legion, for we are many!"
The first time I heard that was on Shadow Man.

Wasnt it from Red Dwarf?

[Enjay]

deathbringer said:

Wasnt it from Red Dwarf?

It was used in Red Dwarf, but it pre-dates Red Dwarf quite a bit - it's from the Bible.

[myk]

Enjay said:
As for why they do not seem to have the upper part - only Adrian knows. Artistic license? It looked right to him? The "full leg" looked clumsy or wrong? Most cartoon characters, for example, only have 3 fingers and a thumb because a 5 digit hand looks clumsy when drawn in a cartoony style.

As for why single hooves instead of cloven ones? Same answer.

Yeah. The most likely influence in my opinion would be that the low resolution of the sprite would make more detail look rather awkward.

[DaJuice]

The problem with the backward legs ala-Baron is that it's kind of an akward way to move for bi-pedal creatures. Anyone see that movie The Arrival? The Aliens in that film have the same setup.

[Trilinear]

OK, I just have to contribute because I've always been fascinated with the Doom "backwards leg" issue...

Has anyone noticed that the Cyberdemon also has backwards legs, yet the Cyberdemon painted by Brom on the Doom II cover has correct legs? Also, the Reaper miniature Cyberdemon and Baron have the backwards legs like the sprites.

As for correct legs looking unusual in the game, Heretic featured a Maulotaur with correct legs and I reckon he looked OK.

I say that Adrian was feeling a bit lazy and it was too difficult to sculpt in an extra joint around the maquettes he was using.

EDIT: The Heretic Maulotaur was a drawn sprite, not physically modelled and digitised as in Doom.

[Stealthy Ivan]

Maybe for creatures from "hell" this is normal...

[SYS]

Makes you wonder what it would look like if a Baron or Hell Knight decided to shave. I'm referring to the legs, but I suppose I'm now opening some weird debate about the genetailia of Barons and Hell Knights would look. So in that case I assume they'd be hermaphroditic, much like Baphomet.

[Stealthy Ivan]

POTGIESSER said:

Makes you wonder what it would look like if a Baron or Hell Knight decided to shave. I'm referring to the legs, but I suppose I'm now opening some weird debate about the genetailia of Barons and Hell Knights would look. So in that case I assume they'd be hermaphroditic, much like Baphomet.

You think too much... :P

[Shapeless]

if they were hermaphroditic they would have breasts.

[Shapeless]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v96/Nataniel/22.jpg

if you look in the corner thir is a ruff sketch of a barron type monster with backward legs. it could have been intentional and the manaqee had nothing to do with it. but those are Kenneth scott's sketches. mabe he was addapting to adrain's old artwork?

[doom2day]

POTGIESSER said:

Makes you wonder what it would look like if a Baron or Hell Knight decided to shave. I'm referring to the legs, but I suppose I'm now opening some weird debate about the genetailia of Barons and Hell Knights would look. So in that case I assume they'd be hermaphroditic, much like Baphomet.

In that case to end that now, the knights are female. end of story.

[doom2day]

and in our sexist world, females are sterotyped as weaker.