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NiGHTMARE

Are you a hypocrite?

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Do you:

1) Not give a rat's arse about other peoples' copyrights (e.g. you download commercial music, films, TV shows, and/or games off the internet), but if someone did something bad with something of yours that was copyrighted (e.g. they distributed an unfinished song, story or game-addon you were working on; or they went around telling people they'd made something that was in fact created by you), you'd make a right fuss about it?

2) Hate certain bands for being "sell outs", but wish your boss would give you a pay rise (or your parents would give you more pocket money/a larger allowance) and would do almost anything to get it?

3) Often write abusive posts on internet message boards, yet know you'd get the s**t kicked out of you if you ever tried anything like that in real life?

4) Complain if people on an internet messageboard start disccusing some perfectly acceptable topic you simply aren't interested in, yet would be the first to take offence if someone else did that in a perfectly acceptable topic you started?

I'm definitely guilty of 1), and occassionaly 3) :)

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NiGHTMARE said:

Do you:

1) Download music, films and games off the internet, but if someone took anything you'd made (e.g. a song, story or game-addon) and claimed it was theirs, you'd make a right fuss about it?

I have never claimed that any song, game, or movie I have pirated was "mine".

2) Hate certain bands for being "sell outs", but wish your boss would give you a pay rise?

Calling someone a "sell out" is most nonsensical. They're recieving payment in exchange for providing a service. And that's hardly worth hating someone over.

3) Often write abusive posts on internet message boards, yet know you'd get the s**t kicked out of you if you ever tried anything like that in real life?

Im pretty much the same in real life, except I certainly swear a lot less.

4) Complain if people on an internet messageboard start disccusing something you don't like/aren't interested in, yet would be the first to take offence if someone else did that in a topic you started?

I cant say this is hypocritical, since some topics are unfit for discussion on a public message board.

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Amaster said:

I have never claimed that any song, game, or movie I have pirated was "mine".

That's not what I meant - by downloading someone else's work you're breaching their copyright, and someone claiming your work is theirs is breaching your copyright. That's where the hypocrisy comes in.

Calling someone a "sell out" is most nonsensical. They're recieving payment in exchange for providing a service. And that's hardly worth hating someone over.

The point is that if one of your main interests is making more money, it isn't really fair to hate/dislike someone else for having the same interest.

I cant say this is hypocritical, since some topics are unfit for discussion on a public message board.

But that's up for the mods to decide, not individual users. And I see people complain about completely acceptable topics all the time (e.g. "stop discussing song X/game Y, it sucks!" or whatever)

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NiGHTMARE said:

That's not what I meant - by downloading someone else's work you're breaching their copyright, and someone claiming your work is theirs is breaching your copyright. That's where the hypocrisy comes in.

Would I get mad if someone breached one of my copyrighted works for personal use? I highly doubt it.

The point is that if one of your main interests is making more money, it isn't really fair to hate/dislike someone else for having the same interest.

My point was that it's foolish to get mad at someone because they do something for money to begin with (barring extremes).

But that's up for the mods to decide, not individual users. And I see people complain about completely acceptable topics all the time (e.g. "stop discussing song X/game Y, it sucks!" or whatever)

The moderators dont exist in my every-day life (well, I am a mod, but Im not counting that :P). Disagreeing with one topic but not another does not necessarily make me a hypocrite.

It's like a quote bonanza!

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Amaster said:

My point was that it's foolish to get mad at someone because they do something for money to begin with (barring extremes).

I agree, but one heck of a lot of people hate any band that they can realistically deem to have "sold out". In fact, "sell out" seems to be the most popular insult for any band certain people don't like.

I'm just wondering how many of these people who hate any band that's in anyway "sell out" related are, in fact, somewhat interested in making (more) money themselves.

The moderators dont exist in my every-day life (well, I am a mod, but Im not counting that :P). Disagreeing with one topic but not another does not necessarily make me a hypocrite.

The question was nothing to do with every day life; it was whether you're happy to complain about other peoples' topics on interet message board, but get upset/angry if someone else complains about one of your topics on an internet messageboard.

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I'm barely guilty of #2. I've only called one dude a sell-out, and that's Paul Oakenfold. And even then, not really. More like, he went too mainstream for my taste.

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It was whether you're happy to complain about other peoples' topics on interet message board, but get upset/angry if someone else complains about one of your topics on an internet messageboard.

Ok, if we're strictly judging according to forum behavior...

It's an ad hoc assemsment. If someone posts something extremely distasteful, then I think it could be fair for someone to complain about it, and still be mad at someone else ragging on their own topics.

For example, I'd sure complain if someone posted goatse in the art forum. At the same time, I'd be admittedly miffed if someone hurled insults my way for a (really bad) sketch if I were to post one there. I dont think that's hypocritical.

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NiGHTMARE said:

2) Hate certain bands for being "sell outs", but wish your boss would give you a pay rise (or your parents would give you more pocket money/a larger allowance)?


It's one thing to complain about not getting paid enough to just make ends meet, it's something totally different to hear about some spoiled rotten band/pop star crying for more money to line their already ridiculously rich pocketbooks that quite frankly they don't need (in fact, it wouldn't kill them to actually use that money for a good cause or just plain give it to someone else).

Thus this point you bring up is moot.

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Am I a hypocrite?

Of course. I'm only human.

(in fact, it wouldn't kill them to actually use that money for a good cause or just plain give it to someone else).

I wouldn't.

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NiGHTMARE said:

That's not what I meant - by downloading someone else's work you're breaching their copyright, and someone claiming your work is theirs is breaching your copyright. That's where the hypocrisy comes in.

Is it really hypocritical to think two things for which someone has created a common label are different? Is it hypocritical, when both are numbers, to think 2 is lesser than 3?

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NiGHTMARE said:
1) Download commercial music, films, TV shows, and/or games off the internet, but if someone took anything you'd made (e.g. a song, story or game-addon) and claimed it was theirs, you'd make a right fuss about it?

Under that conception of hypocrisy you can't make a stand to define acceptable forms of copyright. Unless "hypocrisy" is okay. Copyrights are claims, and by community effort they can be enforced or made respectable, but that doesn't mean that there aren't copyright conflicts and inconsistencies, between users and copyright holders or between different holders and so on. Different communities and groups have their own rules and these are not always analogically compatible with the rules of other spheres.

2) Hate certain bands for being "sell outs", but wish your boss would give you a pay rise (or your parents would give you more pocket money/a larger allowance)?

I doubt hate is the word; but "sellouts" generally produce shit music. But I don't wish for raises; I'd generally rather look for another job if I feel the pay is really bad for what I'm doing. If for negotiating a raise, when the circumstances allow it due to certain percievable merits I have accumulated, I'd personally be quick to analyze the offers made as to what the demands would be for such a raise.

3) Often write abusive posts on internet message boards, yet know you'd get the s**t kicked out of you if you ever tried anything like that in real life?

I'm about the same online and offline.

4) Complain if people on an internet messageboard start disccusing some perfectly acceptable topic you simply aren't interested in, yet would be the first to take offence if someone else did that in a perfectly acceptable topic you started?

I doubt it... I've started very few topics myself, but there are tons of threads that don't particularly interest me and I'm okay with them (not that I generally read them much.)

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NiGHTMARE said:

1) Download commercial music, films, TV shows, and/or games off the internet, but if someone took anything you'd made (e.g. a song, story or game-addon) and claimed it was theirs, you'd make a right fuss about it?

Yes, but I soothe myself with the knowledge that none of my copyright-infriging actions have any financial impact on anyone, anywhere. If I really like music, I'll buy the album legally. Likewise with movies. And 99% of the TV shows I download are ones that aren't even broadcast in my country.

I don't think I'm guilty of any of the others.

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1. I do the former and yes, I would care about the latter. However, these are poorly similar. The former is a breach of copyright, whereas the latter is claiming a false copyright. As I am in firm opposition of copyright, I would have no issue with someone "breaching" my copyright (i.e. distributing "intellectual property" belonging to myself) but would also oppose someone restricting rights to my own work under their own name. Likewise I would judge the theft of an unreleased movie and release of it under your own name more serious than downloading a previously released film.

2. I don't "hate" bands for being sell outs, but I find when the motivation for works moves from personal enjoyment to profit it ceases to be an art form and no longer maintains my interest. And I'm perfectly happy with my current wages ($0). Although once again, I do not find this hypocritical, as there is a clear difference between wanting more money (without necessarily requesting it) and judging it more important than your artistic endeavors.

3. How is this hypocritical? If anything it makes sense, since on an Internet board you will not get the shit kicked out of you. Also, this is to assume no actions are worthy of getting the "shit kicked out of you". That said, I don't think I post anything that would incite someone to "kick the shit out of me", though I am more willing to express my radical opinions on here.

4. I try to avoid threads I have no interest in, and indeed even had Lüt hide the Doom III forums from me to reduce my temptations to troll there.

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Dodge said:

So you'd just let the economy stagnate, eh?

That would only be the case if you stuffed all your money in a pile under the bed.

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Fredrik said:

Is it really hypocritical to think two things for which someone has created a common label are different? Is it hypocritical, when both are numbers, to think 2 is lesser than 3?

Stealing someone else's work versus having your work stolen by someone else. Both numbers are the same.

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Are you a hypocrite?


I most certainly am, thank you for asking.

Specially of one (1). 3 on the other hand, nope. Noone ever mess with me. Dunno why.

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1) Taking credit for someone else's work or denying someone credit is just plain rotten and much different than simply downloading something. There's also the issue of sampling used in a music, but most of the time people won't hesitate to say what a source was. Often a source is completely obvious. I see nothing wrong with that unless you have something like Vanilla Ice right out denying he got that beat from the song Under Pressure by Queen with David Bowie.

2) If someone's busting their ass they have a right to want more pay. It's a different situation when people compromise their art or just plain make annoying shit for the sake of being marketable.

3) I've walked right over to army recruiters and put shit on their table to piss them off. I've given an anti-Bush speech where I went after Reagan as well. I don't open my mouth as much as should, so I should start pissing more people off. I know can physically back it up when I do.

4) This is the one thing you listed that's actually hyprocritical to do. I never complained about people discussing something, but I'm sure I've posted a little comment here or there about something being lame because it was.

Now real hyprocracy is shit like this:
1. Saying you shouldn't kill but waging or supporting a corrupt war.
2. Saying "We're all sinners" as if to justify just personal weakness while pulling everyone into some bullshit religious beliefs. Anyone who says "We're all sinners" should be punched right on the spot.
3. Being a total skank (often lying your ass off) sleeping with whoever you can get, but then crucifying women for sleeping around or being prostitutes and agreeing with actual punishment such as being named on TV news or stoning.
4. Preaching love and unity but excommunicating and discriminating against people who won't kiss your god's ass or otherwise seem weird.

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You could say I'm guilty of 1), but truth be told is it really hypocrisy? I'd take the time to enforce my copyrights whenever there's a violation, whereas I haven't been the target of such treatment by the "affected" artists/distribution companies. I don't think vague, massively targeted "hay guys don't steal" ads to be worthy of attention.

Yes, I steal. And this is how I ended up chucking $300 into Radiohead crap over the last year. It's partly research, partly comfort (no cd swapping, backup, no drive noise, etc.).

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Wa? Wazzafuh? Wa you yella-bellayed, ta-wearin' tea-suckin' hypocrite! Wa da f**k youse eva done back derr in ol' Howlywood, yeh payensy-ass liberals! A-hoo, a-hoo, a-hoo-hoo! Damn boi, get meh som cheap-ass brews na, oh Ise whoop yeh damn ass!!!

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Gokuma said:

1) Taking credit for someone else's work or denying someone credit is just plain rotten and much different than simply downloading something.

Think about it: not giving a second thought (or simply not caring) about breaking someone else's copyrights, vs. getting upset if someone else breaks your copyrights. That smells suspsiciously like hypocrisy to me.

2. I don't "hate" bands for being sell outs, but I find when the motivation for works moves from personal enjoyment to profit it ceases to be an art form and no longer maintains my interest. And I'm perfectly happy with my current wages ($0). Although once again, I do not find this hypocritical, as there is a clear difference between wanting more money (without necessarily requesting it) and judging it more important than your artistic endeavors.

But the band members are merely doing a job, albeit in a different and more public field than most people work in. Just because their job happens to be their main interest as well (or not), and they're lucky and/or talented enough to have made it in an extremely competitive market, that means they're suddenly no longer allowed to take an interest in monetary affairs?

Imagine for instant, that someone's main interest in life is, for example, answering telephones all day long. They love this activity more than any other (I'll leave it up to you whether this includes sex or not :P), and have perfected the task to the level where it's an "art form". Because they're so good at what they do, they quickly rise to a level where they're getting paid serious cashola. They're still doing exactly what it is they love to do, it just so happens their passion in live and their job co-incide, plus they're getting extremely rich from it.

How many of these people who slag off "sell out" bands, would jump at the chance of doing a job directly related to whatever their first love in life was, and getting paid millions for it? If they wouldn't, they're idiots.

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They need to be the same thing for it to hypocritical. Breaching someone's copyright protections is different from literally copyrighting someone else's work.

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By the way...

NiGHTMARE said:
1) Download commercial music, films, TV shows, and/or games off the internet, but if someone took anything you'd made (e.g. a song, story or game-addon) and claimed it was theirs, you'd make a right fuss about it?

I'm definitely guilty of 1)


I recall you've also been guilty of taking something someone made (e.g. a game-addon) and claimed it was yours.

People being hypocrites in the Forums is something the Forums can handle, and stuff that will be dealt with somehow, but people's unrelated activity outside of producing DOOM-related stuff and beyond the Forums' space is something else... something we can't guess (some people here could be lying, being complete hypocrites, for all we know.) The host here demands that warez be considered illegal, and this extends towards add-ons inevitably, to a good degree; but what we each do at home otherwise about copyrights is a void here unless we somehow tote it in.

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sargebaldy said:

They need to be the same thing for it to hypocritical. Breaching someone's copyright protections is different from literally copyrighting someone else's work.

I wasn't talking about them taking your work and proving it was theirs in the eyes of the law, merely telling people it was theirs. The copyright would legally still belong to you.

myk said:

I recall you've also been guilty of taking something someone made (e.g. a game-addon) and claimed it was yours.

Unless you want the possibility of someone eventually filing libel charges, try to get your facts straight in the future, eh? Personally I'm not inclined towards that sort of thing, but there are a lot of greedy people out there just itching to take advantage of something like this.

I didn't take a "game-addon", I heavily modified a couple (literally) of someone else's textures to the point of virtual non-recognition, and included them in a certain add-on. The person who was in charge of said add-on promptly decided to release the project without giving any of the contributors time to include any credits in the text file.

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