KDIZD cancelled because of copyright issues?

[Tassadar]

Just read this thread over at ZDoom.org from Risen's first post on this page on:

http://forum.zdoom.org/viewtopic.php?t=3255&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=3795

Looks like id software didn't allow them to release the wad and now members are quitting and removing their work... :( Very likely kdidz will be cancelled...

/me is sad :( :(

[kristus]

Why did they bother asking in the first place? It's not like they are the first team to use ID maps as base.

[Nmn]

:'(

[Chronoteeth]

Heh, maybe you shoud of kept it private. That way, no one whoud of known the project, thus making Id not know either. But it anything happens, release it. Fuck copyright laws.

[Little Faith]

You wasted so much time.

Time to be mocked by Deathz0r.

[Infinite Ammunition]

ffs you're the millionth to use id maps for a base, just go on with it or show it to them

[Nmn]

Tassadar and everyone else who think we've cancelled KDiZD.
We haven't.
And we will NOT.
And I will say NOTHING more. Thanks, and never cry, don't abandon hope ;)

[Use]

yeah, if they had stayed under the radar none of this would have happened.

[Uncle 80]

Ha ha.
As someone said on the zdoom forums, if KDIZD is a copyright violation, and Id were to take legal action against all who have, at one point of time, released a wad containing modifications of resources found in the original IWADs - they'll have to take legal actions against 75% of the wad authors, living or otherwise.
We're talking tens of thousands of dollars wasted in courtrooms, at best [but it will probably be a lot more expensive than that].

So:
Finish the WAD, release it, and in the unlikely event that Id should choose to take legal action - watch them spend every dollar their precious corporation is worth. We're talking bankrupcy, heh.

No one in their right mind would bother with legal actions against such a "lucrative" project, heh.

[Grazza]

Uncle 80 said:

they'll have to take legal actions against 75% of the wad authors

There's no rule saying that you have to take legal action against everyone that you could in theory take legal action against.

Anyway, I don't believe the intention of the KDiZD team is to say a big "fuck you" to id Software in the way that you are urging them to, so whether there would be any actual legal action (and this does indeed seem unlikely on the face of it) is perhaps not the main issue.

[NiGHTMARE]

The problem isn't the levels - read license.doc that comes with Doom (well, versions beyond 1.666), Doom 2 and Final Doom and you'll see it clearly states modifying original levels is permitted.

The issue is in regards to modified textures & sprites, and we're planning to send another e-mail to Todd Hollenshead as the issue is still a bit unclear at the moment.

If it does turn out they don't allow modified versions of non-level resources, this will affect one heck of a lot more in-progress projects than just KDIZD (that is, if the leaders of these projects actually care about potential legal issues).

[Graf Zahl]

NiGHTMARE said:

If it does turn out they don't allow modified versions of non-level resources, this will affect one heck of a lot more in-progress projects than just KDIZD (that is, if the leaders of these projects actually care about potential legal issues).

And let's not forget that a significant quantity of levels and graphics in the /idgames archives would be affected as well

[deathz0r]

Little Faith said:

Time to be mocked by Deathz0r.

I have nothing to say at the moment regarding KDiZD. It does seem ironic that my wish is more or less coming true though.

[Scuba Steve]

Why did you guys even mail id? I think that's the only problem here.

[kristus]

Exactly, if ID really cared they'd be going through the idgames archive once a week as there's always atleast one wad that use modified resources on way or another.

[sargebaldy]

Funny, Ty doesn't care about people including textures or sprites from the original games. To quote an email he wrote in his rejection of MooDDooM from the archives:

As I mentioned, I'm not that concerned with graphics, especially from other games, where people are trying to merge the non-DOOM resources with DOOM games. You mention Eternal; there was some concern over that, but the original Eternal was released off-net (Compuserve) years earlier and was only brought to the Internet later as the final product was released. I'd like to think I didn't do that with favoritism since by then Eternal I and II had been out for quite a while prior to the release of Eternal III in '97.

[Linguica]

hahah they are all so stupid

seriously no one gives a shit. they wanted to feel like a big man so they emailed id asking for grandiose "official" permission, and when hollenshead said "uhhhh wtf i dont know read the eula" they get all scared and run away.

[edit 10 years later: wow that was super rude and uncalled for]

[Lutrov71]

Why the hell would ID sue anybody anyway? It's a waste of time and it doesn't matter, it's an 11 year old game. I don't think they care at all.

[sargebaldy]

Yeah, id probably didn't even realize there's still a Doom community at all, or care what people are doing, legal or not. The only obstacle to a wad getting published is Ty.

[Grazza]

sargebaldy said:

The only obstacle to a wad getting published is Ty.

That's hardly the best way to put it. It's not like he actively prevents people from making or distributing wads. Ty is the principal reason why there is still a coherent and up-to-date Doom archive. Like any archive maintainer (or webmaster, etc.) he has rules on what is and what isn't allowed, and uses his judgement on how best to apply those rules.

[NiGHTMARE]

Linguica said:

hahah they are all so stupid

seriously no one gives a shit. they wanted to feel like a big man so they emailed id asking for grandiose "official" permission, and when hollenshead said "uhhhh wtf i dont know read the eula" they get all scared and run away.

Hooray for getting coming to totally incorrect conclusions and making utterly false statements based on a complete absence of accurate and relevant facts.

One of our team members, namely Risen, has believed that using modified textures & sprites is illegal for several years now. This is why, towards the end of Twice Risen's life, he ended up dumping the entire TR texture wad and using a load of textures from various fan-made Quake texture packs instead.

The fact KDIZD also uses modified levels got Risen so worried that he decided to e-mail ID asking for their opinion on things, without even telling the rest of the KDIZD team about his plan before-hand.

For some reason Risen didn't quote the entirety of his e-mails to/from ID, but what he did post sounded extremely vague - Todd Hollenshead saying "we can't make an exception to the EULA".

None of the KDIZD team have "run away". A couple of team members did have unncessary panic attacks at first, but are now considering creating a new texture wad entirely from scratch (which will of course add several months to the project's development time).

Personally, I very much doubt ID even have a problem with modified textures & sprites. I believe what Todd was referring to was the levels themselves, not realizing that the Doom license actually grants permission to modify them. I also think the only reason the license doesn't specifically mention textures, sprites, music, etc is because at the time the license was written (for the v1.666 patch), extremely few wads actually had new textures, sprites, music, etc.

We really need to try to get a far less vague response from ID.

[Nmn]

Less talky talky, more worky worky Nick.
The maps need bug fixing, learn damn decorate to script us new actors, put the new sounds in the res wad, get to work friend!

Why the flying hell are You wasting time (and our good name)????!?!?!? Work, toil and evolve.

[NiGHTMARE]

Sorry NMN but this is an extremely important issue. If ID really don't allow Doom textures & sprites to be modified, it affects the entire Doom community, not just us.

[Nmn]

Nick, You realise how many projects out there actually broke the law if we interpret this as You're saying.
We've been doing this for 11 years now, this speaks much more (and the community, and the modders) than our interpretion of Doom's license.

What You said, sorry, is laughable, we can't shut down the entire community because they broke our interpretation of the EULA.

This thing is subjective (how we interpret this) but in such cases, the truth is what the majority accepts, and look at the comments (points at people).

EDIT: I believe it's Risen's interpretation of the EULA is what's wrong here. So many projects use resources not only from Doom games, but a lot of wads out there use sprites from many other, different games. And we've seen no trials yet! and we won't IMO.

[NiGHTMARE]

I'm saying I don't think ID have a problem with modified resources. IMHO the whole problem started for at least one of the following reasons:

1) Todd misunderstood what Risen said

2) Risen misinterpreted Todd's replies

3) Todd is unaware of the terms of the Doom (2) license, and his reply was based on the license included in more recent ID titles (understandable considering he didn't join ID until a few years ago).

[Nmn]

I believe we won't get a clear reply from ID for the sole reason of lack of their time. Do You think they got enough time to write clear replies and waste a single day to study the EULA and examine our mod toroughly? No, they're making new games for us, the gaming industry is too fast to focus on such details (despite our project's name, it's still a tiny piece of work in the gaming industry).

I toroughly believe we should rely on the community's comments and advices.

NiGHTMARE said:

None of the KDIZD team have "run away". A couple of team members did have unncessary panic attacks at first

Please excuse me, but I have seen people troubled by the game's copyrights. I don't know their cases but for one thing, I wouldn't want to end that way.

[Dco16]

Damn it this is going to be one of those projects that lives on in history for its high level of bullshit needed for completion.

[Nmn]

Thanks for sharing that valuable information with us :)

[kristus]

Nmn said:

EDIT: I believe it's Risen's interpretation of the EULA is what's wrong here. So many projects use resources not only from Doom games, but a lot of wads out there use sprites from many other, different games. And we've seen no trials yet! and we won't IMO.

This doesn't mean that it's not illegal, which it is, it's very illegal to use Heretic sprites in Doom, but is id and raven gonna waste time enforcing all these transgressions or are they gonna live with it and let people do that, it doesn't hurt them, quite the opposite rather, people get intrested in other games by seeing the resources in a mod or something. Atleast that's how I've found out about a couple of games.

[Uncle 80]

Grazza said:

There's no rule saying that you have to take legal action against everyone that you could in theory take legal action against.

I know, but IF id were to sue someone because of modified texture, I think any court would find it a bit strange to go after just one "randomly picked" gang of individuals when 1000nds of others have done the same thing. See napster..

Grazza said:

Anyway, I don't believe the intention of the KDiZD team is to say a big "fuck you" to id Software in the way that you are urging them to..

My intention was not to urge anyone to say anything.. just release the wad, so we (or at least, I) can play it, instead of worrying about an 11-year old piece of legal mumbo jumbo that's full of potential loopholes anyway.