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Aseph

Come on, help a newbie out [which editor?]

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If this question has been asked before recently, I apologize, but I've never posted in this particular section of the forum and I'm in a bit of a hurry so I don't have time to look through the list.

I've decided to start making wads, but I'm not sure which editor to get. Which one is the best for newbies? I'm looking for one that's as easy to use as possible, and I'm hoping for a something that is fairly visual when it comes to texturing and such.

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DoomBuilder or DeepSea, I would give them both a try, and see which one you are more comfortable with. DoomBuilder is a bit easier to use if that makes any differance...

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Wadauthor, Deepsea, Doom Builder.
I prefer Doom builder and Deepsea.
Doom builder for mapping and Deepsea for other changes.

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I recommend Wadauthor, the first time i used it i read the tutorial and 1/2 hour later i was running around my first map.. 2 rooms with a door more like but anyway.

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I recommend not using WadAuthor. It's an old piece of software that hasn't been updated for 7 or 8 years. It may be easier for a beginner but the lack of updates and limited support for enhanced source port features are a big minus.

AFAIK it doesn't offer any visual editing features like DoomBuilder and DeepSea as well.

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Start with Deu, pull your hair out and curse, but eventually learn its bugs. Move on to windeu then eventually wadauthor and learn that. Then try either Deepsea or DB, and by the time you start on those, you wont ever need to ask a map editing question again. ;)

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I think wadauther is a great way to get into the doom engine, and you cant say you can make a better map with any other editor. And there was some word of a update, later i'll dig it up..

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Liberation said:

and you cant say you can make a better map with any other editor.



So why is it then that WA maps are so easily recognizable by their general layout, even the good ones?

Don't laugh but I can spot WadAuthor maps immediately when I load them into a map editor. There is a certain style to nearly all of them that they don't share with anything else.

And the only conclusion I can draw is that this editor is lacking ... well, something I can't point my finger on.

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For the millionth time: it's just a different mapping method, not style. Using Doom Builder doesn't let you make better maps any more than using WadAuthor tends to produce bad ones.

WadAuthor IS better for beginners. Granted, I started out before the release of DB, and the only major alternative was DeePsea, which I really disliked ([/understatement]). It's all a question of line-draw versus sector-based mapping.

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netnomad312 said:
For the millionth time: it's just a different mapping method, not style. Using Doom Builder doesn't let you make better maps any more than using WadAuthor tends to produce bad ones.


Nobody said that. But why is it that WadAuthor maps are so easily recognizable? I just have to look at the map layout in an editor and I can guess correctly in more than 90% whether a map has been built with WadAuthor or something else

WadAuthor IS better for beginners.


That may have been true for some people before DoomBuilder and its 3D mode came into existence. Having some visual aid to place the textures is something that can't be replaced by anything.

Anyway, I totally disagree anyway. I found it completely unusable from the start. There is no intuitive way to create structures. It's all very cumbersome because you can't start with the layout you want.

It's all a question of line-draw versus sector-based mapping.


Even sector based editing should be more flexible.

Well, to each his own. If someone can handle WadAuthor's strangeness it's probably fine. But that doesn't eliminate the outdatedness of this editor. What about all the cool new features of modern source ports? WadAuthor doesn't even directly support flag based sector types (not to mention Boom's generalized linedefs!) That's probably the biggest issue any new user should be aware of.

DoomBuilder is new and up to date. It supports the features that are added to the source ports today and gets updated further. Plus it's completely free, unlike WA and some other editor I don't want to talk about. ;)

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Just out of curiosity (and for once not trying to pick a fight with you), could you explain how they are recognizable?

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It's hard to describe. It's just the way things are structured. WadAuthor's way of adding geometry somehow leads to different looking results than the direct line drawing method of the other editors. But I really can't put it in words. It's just - 'different'.

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How about an example then?

I mean, yes, anyone who sticks to the prefabs will come out with a pretty basic map. But the method is different: you create one, split a line, move the new vertex, repeat. In DeePsea I couldn't figure out how to make a sector hook up at all, and even when I did a prefab sector I couldn't move the vertices. Heh. Nothing against Doom Builder, it's just not my style now that I've spent a year+ using WadAuthor before DB came out. And DB's 3D mode is undeniably useful; I'll use that for tweaking offsets and such, but not much else.

As for supporting source ports: nothing a new config file can't fix.

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Doombuilder is the way...
Seeing as I was first mapping for Duke3D I was spoilt by the 3D view mode. So for me, DB is the only way...

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netnomad312 said:

How about an example then?

I mean, yes, anyone who sticks to the prefabs will come out with a pretty basic map. But the method is different: you create one, split a line, move the new vertex, repeat. In DeePsea I couldn't figure out how to make a sector hook up at all, and even when I did a prefab sector I couldn't move the vertices. Heh. Nothing against Doom Builder, it's just not my style now that I've spent a year+ using WadAuthor before DB came out. And DB's 3D mode is undeniably useful; I'll use that for tweaking offsets and such, but not much else.

As for supporting source ports: nothing a new config file can't fix.

If you can't follow the interactive tutorial in DeePsea then you are correct - you'll never be able to use a line drawing editor :)

As for a new config file in WA, that only is a partial fix and is ok only for people making simple levels that don't take advantage of all the stuff available now.

WA only supports a limited number of BOOM specials (via this new config file) and it can't support new flags (or you can do a cumbersome manual edit); can't support hires textures; is limited to level size (even below 32k) so all in all it's no longer fast or friendly in today's world - but it still is one of the easiest to learn if one never gets into advanced stuff.

One way I can always tell a WA level (from beginners) is overlapping lines and lines that do not connect properly. A few very experienced mappers have made awesome levels, for example Rex

http://doomnexus.50megs.com/

- so clearly WA can do the job!

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Ok, lets see...

deepsea costs money
deepsea is based on deu
deppsea has a 3d preview mode

doombuilder is free
doombuilder controlls a bit like DCK
doombuilder has a 3d edit mode

I use doombuilder ;)
And now if CodeImp could get a 3d thing edit mode up and running i would be entirely happy, then i wouldnt need to switch to zdoom to look if some achitectural construction that uses items looks good.
And for far far far far ... far away development try a complete 3d edit mode, ie creating rooms in 3d ^.^
Copy the interface of Autodesk AutoCAD Inventor.

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Bastet Furry said:

Ok, lets see...

deepsea costs money
deepsea is based on deu
deppsea has a 3d preview mode

doombuilder is free
doombuilder controlls a bit like DCK
doombuilder has a 3d edit mode

I use doombuilder ;)
And now if CodeImp could get a 3d thing edit mode up and running i would be entirely happy, then i wouldnt need to switch to zdoom to look if some achitectural construction that uses items looks good.
And for far far far far ... far away development try a complete 3d edit mode, ie creating rooms in 3d ^.^
Copy the interface of Autodesk AutoCAD Inventor.

Although started from DEU it immediately had line drawing, graphical visual feedback, etc and now only historically related, unless `~9MB of code vs ~0.5mb of code (in terms of file sizes) is the same to you :)

DeePsea controls a bit like DCK - because Ben copied stuff from DeeP and I copied some stuff from him. All the prefab tools are interactive via the mouse and keyboard :) Some people copy stuff but they don't give credit :)

DeePsea has 3D edit mode using R3Dedit a specialized version of RISEN3D (where have you been) that displays the level as it would in your port - including real skies and sprite placement (that you desire) or models for the JDOOM guys. Just takes more time to work with a real port engine - but other stuff is in the works.

Integrated unique PWAD tools (free unlimited use even for shareware) that speed up resource handling and conversion.

Supports DeePsea's hi-res textures, PNG textures and varies the scaling according to port (different ports do it differently). You can even have the textures externally loaded in their raw PNG format - see JDOOM or ZDOOMGL.

DeePsea edits in 3D levels over 32k linedefs (up to 64k limits for everything) and actually over 64k sidedefs is possible.

And yes it costs money - just depends on your requirements :)

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DeepSEA has 9M of code :) Bigger is better you know :)

DeepSEA costs money :)

DeepSEA doesn't have anything useful Doom Builder doesn't :) But its menus have more crap in them :)

DeepSEA never borrows features from other ports :)

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deep said:

If you can't follow the interactive tutorial in DeePsea then you are correct - you'll never be able to use a line drawing editor :)

Oh, I could probably do it NOW, that I know more about mapping and how lines/sectors work. I don't even remember what that tutorial said, (it's been over two years since I had DeePsea on any of my computers) but I know I wasn't the first to be confused by it... coincidence? Well, now I can make a sector hook up in Doom Builder if I wanted to, so if I really wanted to map with DeePsea I guess I could. But at this point it's more a matter of laziness and no real reason to re-download DeePsea; I lost that program in a HD crash at least two years ago, and never found a reason to get it back.

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sargebaldy said:
DeepSEA has 9M of code :) Bigger is better you know :)

DeepSEA costs money :)

DeepSEA doesn't have anything useful Doom Builder doesn't :) But its menus have more crap in them :)

DeepSEA never borrows features from other ports :)

I find your post amusing :)

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netnomad312 said:

Oh, I could probably do it NOW, that I know more about mapping

Of course. The problem was YOU not knowing anything about editing - not the editor. That's true for learning ANY editor. First there's a great deal of "confusion" and then everything clicks. Nothing new there.

If anything, DeePsea is a bit easier to "connect" with when drawing than DB. Why? You don't have to come back to the beginning to "close" a sector. Other than that, drawing is identical except you can draw over lines and visually a bit easier to hit lines :)

The tutorial is interactive. IOW, all you do is follow onscreen and do exactly what it tells you to do.

As to whether your admitted laziness is a problem, that just depends on what you want to do in life.

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deep said:

If anything, DeePsea is a bit easier to "connect" with when drawing than DB. Why? You don't have to come back to the beginning to "close" a sector. Other than that, drawing is identical except you can draw over lines and visually a bit easier to hit lines :)


Your personal opinion that's for sure.

I know it's been debated to death, but for all that great "convenience" you have to pay more than you'd pay for Doom, Doom II, and Final Doom bundled together. I think if it's an issue, it's worth suffering over for FREE.

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Yeah I have to admit Doom Builder really should make sectors easier to close, since that's my only remaining issue with drawing. DeepSEA's method in that regard is pretty nice. But on the whole I prefer Doom Builder's drawing because it's much more relaxed in how you want to build things and with referencing things properly.

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