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PrBoom-Plus, ver. 2.5.1.4

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@jeff-d Just looking around at the start of your R_RenderSegLoop, even if I don't really understand it I can still immediately see it's much closer to vanilla's than Boom's, which means the patch above on previous page is most likely a no-op (as since we see above that vanilla misdraws the 10secto2 map, we can assume vanilla doesn't have the overdraw bug that the map relies upon to display correctly, so it must have come from Boom). I would thus likely start by massaging R_RenderSegLoop until it looked more like Boom's version (but without the patch above on the previous page, obviously). I wish I could be more helpful but as you may have guessed how this stuff works is a bit of a mystery to me.

 

 

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Please remove the SR50 on StrafeOn+StrafeLeft \ StrafeOn+StrafeRight (no required use of turnleft\turnright) feature that was introduced in 2.5.1.4, nobody outside of speedrunning needs it and it's clearly a feature giving an unfair advantage. Several people who make demos already use a modified version to disable it and some speedrunners are probably unaware of it (it also being somewhat of a hidden feature is also reason to remove it).

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i think the cat's out of the bag now.

as ToD has described in the past, it's very possible to achieve the same effect with some tinkering with configs anyway

actually, talking about it in posts like this is more likely to make people aware and start using it then if we kept quiet :p

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Maybe it wasn't clear in zm's post that the "feature" is on by default and you can't turn it off, until somewhere in 2016 runners didn't know about this and produces demos using this kinda cheaty sr50 without being aware.

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3 hours ago, ZeroMaster010 said:

Please remove the SR50 on StrafeOn+StrafeLeft \ StrafeOn+StrafeRight (no required use of turnleft\turnright) feature that was introduced in 2.5.1.4, nobody outside of speedrunning needs it and it's clearly a feature giving an unfair advantage. Several people who make demos already use a modified version to disable it and some speedrunners are probably unaware of it (it also being somewhat of a hidden feature is also reason to remove it).

removed with "strafe 50 on turns"

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Update: I just went to check some previous posts and I guess it turns out during the hour or two I spent writing Things Happened. I'm sorry everyone. Original post below, I spent too long on it not to submit it.

 

________________

 

 

Hi @ZeroMaster010 @dew @TimeOfDeath666 @Ribbiks @Keyboard_Doomer @38_ViTa_38 and anyone else who's commented on the subject of two-key strafe50:

 

Before I begin, please don't blame entryway, he had nothing to do with it. I am entirely responsible. To explain:

 

I came up with the two-key strafe50 patch in rboom some years ago, and later ported it to PrBoom+ after a user request, to which I initially reacted "that sounds messy, why do you want to do that" -- but after a few moments thought I realised what he wanted was to make strafe50 easier to activate, and I thought "oh wait I have a patch for that already". I posted the patch here for comment, and it was reviewed briefly by at least one other user. Without any particular objections, I committed it and carried on.

 

It has certainly never been a hidden feature -- I announced it here (as described above), it was added in the changelogs in the source distribution and on the website, and that's the standard amount of fanfare that any change or new feature has ever had (with the possible exception of WiggleFix, which was plastered across the front page of Doomworld for some reason, but I digress)

 

Anyway later -- I mean like nearly a year later -- I was idly browsing some interesting thread in the demos forum when to my horror I discover there's been all this grumbling about my patch in back-channels, which had evidently reached a point where it bubbled over onto the forums. I read various snide remarks, aspersions cast, and so on. People for whom I hold a tremendous respect for their Dooming skills were quite openly disparaging PrBoom+, calling it, and all demos recorded by it in the previous year, tainted. This was not good for my mental state so I had my usual reaction and went into hiding for a while. (And then Brexit happened... but I digress again...)

 

Another year later. I've repeatedly tried to compose a reply in my head to the aforementioned posts, but I just never seemed to have the stomach for the inevitable following disagreements. But here the issue is bubbling up again and I suppose I should not put it off any longer.

 

What I would like to ask for -- hopefully with the greatest respect -- is a convincing explanation of why it's supposed to be a cheat. Because I have yet to hear one. I've read a few posts that vaguely describe people's objections to the feature, but to me they seem like misunderstandings. As I will try to explain:

  • "It's automated" -- no, it is still manually controlled. You still have to press the keys, there's just one fewer to press. Pressing StrafeOn still suppresses turning. There is no automatic override of the StrafeOn key when turning motion is detected.
  • "It allows production of illegal tics" -- I can't imagine where this came from, you certainly can't turn and strafe50 at the same time.
  • "It allows superhuman feats" I didn't understand this one either
  • "You can strafe50 in both directions" -- well, yeah, but you've always been able to strafe50 in both directions, or at least, I have -- alt+A+Q, or alt+S+W, all conveniently in a line for use with thumb and first two fingers, along with RMB for forward. I suggest if you are not able to easily strafe50 in both directions, your control scheme is suboptimal and you should rethink it. :)

After that what remains is "it is my opinion [as a prominent member and thought leader in the Doom speedrunning community] that it is a cheat and should be removed" which I have to admit is not persuasive. :)

 

Yes, it's something not in vanilla. So is flip180, so is novert, so is running the game in high resolution widescreen allowing you to see incoming missiles at much greater distances and a 30%+ increase in peripheral vision. But none of these are considered cheats, they are simply quality of life improvements, comfort features, call them what you will -- even to the extent that there is an outstanding request for guidelines to be drawn on the screen in widescreen to indicate the edges of the BFG cone! What next, a crosshair that's a vertical line the full height of the screen? ;)
 

With all the fallout I regret committing the patch now, but I am also too stubborn to just revert it without more convincing. If I relent, and revert without comment, it feels as though I accept the accusations without having had an opportunity to defend the patch against them.

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for the record (responding as my name showed up in that list), I'm fine with it existing, but imo it should've been an option to toggle in a menu somewhere (with default being "off")

 

most of the grey-area stuff (advanced hud, 180°-flip, etc) seems best left to the discretion of the runners, with usage to be indicated in their text-files if they feel so inclined. I don't have any hardcore opposition to any of it, so I hope none of my previous comments were interpreted as disparaging the port or your contributions to it.

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27 minutes ago, RjY said:

Yes, it's something not in vanilla. So is flip180, so is novert, so is running the game in high resolution widescreen allowing you to see incoming missiles at much greater distances and a 30%+ increase in peripheral vision. But none of these are considered cheats, they are simply quality of life improvements, comfort features, call them what you will -- even to the extent that there is an outstanding request for guidelines to be drawn on the screen in widescreen to indicate the edges of the BFG cone! What next, a crosshair that's a vertical line the full height of the screen? ;)

 

I think that most of that stuff is mild cheating too. Except novert, because I like it. B)

 

And that's why I think coming to a consensus on where the "cheat line" lies is probably not going to happen. But if 66%* of the best Doom speedrunners** don't really like it, I think it should go.

 

* or whatever other arbitrarily large portion

** how do we draw the line between the best and rest though?!

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Thank you for the clarification, RjY. With all of this said I kinda wish you came forward with it sooner so we could properly talk it out, because you're right - this produced some unwarranted rumours and unnecessary snide remarks.

 

I discussed this edit with a few speedrunners on several occasions and we usually agreed on the following: it's not a game-breaking issue that would delegitimize all demos recorded with it. That's why I never went to war over it or publicly disparaged prboom in the demos forum. It has almost no relevance for max demos, for example. On the other hand, we felt it does provide unfair advantage in the case of highly optimized speedruns. Imagine grinding for hours to slice away just a few tics to beat someone else's record, then learning that you maybe were aided just ever so slightly. You know it's well within your reach to do it properly, but you can't help but feel a worm of doubt that your run isn't entirely legit anymore. That's where the most sincere grumbles came from.

 

You are right in saying that prboom-plus and many other ports already provide subtle ease-of-life improvements that someone like ocelot would never stomach, but 1) the C-N is finally and truly dead, an embalmed corpse on display in a glass casket, 2) most of these props and boosters are optional and there's a switch for them somewhere, 3) we're slowly probing this new reality and establishing an order in which the intended port and wad age matter for comparing efforts. Basically the "facilitated" sr50 edit would be perfectly fine if it met these three conditions. No one would accuse max runners of cheating if they used this, but people going for a nomo record on doom2 map01 want to stay the hell away from this, same as smart HUD isn't considered a heresy these days, but you'd better not use it for a respawn demo or else.

 

This is kind of hard to express the way I really feel about it, because a lot of it touches upon morals and a paradigm shift mandated by technological advancements. Holy shit, someone call Kotaku because I'm using big words. But I guess it was long overdue to at least bring it up, because we will have to come to a compromise between tradition and progress eventually.

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@Ribbiks Sorry I guess I gave the wrong impression, I was just trying to think of everyone who'd made memorable (to me) posts on the subject, not necessarily those particularly arguing against the feature, sorry to paint you with that brush if that's how it seemed. You and ToD were people I was replying to when I first posted the patch here -- for which I thank you, if I never said before -- and you both seemed quite positive. I agree with hindsight I absolutely should have made it optional, though. I just didn't want to add more options since there are three million of the damn things already.

 

@Benjogami You raise a point I've thought about a lot, that "where the line is" is quite subjective, obviously I have a rather relaxed attitude towards changing things if they improve my experience playing the game. I expect most others who hack on the Doom source, or just do free / open source in general, feel similarly -- I mean it's kind of the point, you're free to fix or improve the programs you have. On the other hand as I explain below I totally failed to account for the point of view of those at the top end of competitive speedrunning -- not really having that mindset myself, their concerns never even occurred to me.

 

@dew I hear you and thank you for explaining the point of view I was missing. To have player skill be the only distinguishing factor between runs, all other variables have to be the same, not just in the present but also consistent with past history (to allow comparison against existing records). I am relieved to hear it's not been declared a totally game-breaking issue, but as I replied to Ribbiks, I should have made the damn thing optional, and turned off from the start. I apologize in particular to anyone whose time they felt was wasted, by spending untold hours grinding out a recording only to be left wondering if it was worth anything. Also I am sorry for not speaking up sooner, but I had no idea there was a problem for at least a year, of course that doesn't excuse my hiding under the bed for a further year. I just hope everything is cool for now and it's a weight off my mind.

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2 hours ago, RjY said:

@Ribbiks Sorry I guess I gave the wrong impression, I was just trying to think of everyone who'd made memorable (to me) posts on the subject, not necessarily those particularly arguing against the feature, sorry to paint you with that brush if that's how it seemed. You and ToD were people I was replying to when I first posted the patch here -- for which I thank you, if I never said before -- and you both seemed quite positive. I agree with hindsight I absolutely should have made it optional, though. I just didn't want to add more options since there are three million of the damn things already.

 

@Benjogami You raise a point I've thought about a lot, that "where the line is" is quite subjective, obviously I have a rather relaxed attitude towards changing things if they improve my experience playing the game. I expect most others who hack on the Doom source, or just do free / open source in general, feel similarly -- I mean it's kind of the point, you're free to fix or improve the programs you have. On the other hand as I explain below I totally failed to account for the point of view of those at the top end of competitive speedrunning -- not really having that mindset myself, their concerns never even occurred to me.

 

@dew I hear you and thank you for explaining the point of view I was missing. To have player skill be the only distinguishing factor between runs, all other variables have to be the same, not just in the present but also consistent with past history (to allow comparison against existing records). I am relieved to hear it's not been declared a totally game-breaking issue, but as I replied to Ribbiks, I should have made the damn thing optional, and turned off from the start. I apologize in particular to anyone whose time they felt was wasted, by spending untold hours grinding out a recording only to be left wondering if it was worth anything. Also I am sorry for not speaking up sooner, but I had no idea there was a problem for at least a year, of course that doesn't excuse my hiding under the bed for a further year. I just hope everything is cool for now and it's a weight off my mind.

It's definitely not a cheat, if it can be done with vanilla (more buttons or not). I think the resentment comes from the fact that it takes a move formerly reserved for the elite, and gives it to the masses:

 

"You whipper-snappers - in my day, I had to walk 10 miles in the snow, uphill...both directions".

 

For example, I suck at SR-anything. This option gives me a tool that I would otherwise probably use much less frequently. So, it assists me and my fat fingers and crappy keyboard setup. But, that doesn't make it a cheat - it just gives me the ability to do what everyone else can do, without getting carpal-tunnel syndrome.

 

@RjYDon't be dissin' WiggleFix, man :)

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To have player skill be the only distinguishing factor between runs, all other variables have to be the same, not just in the present but also consistent with past history (to allow comparison against existing records).

Exactly!

..  to create some "olympic computer games" - always fair and comparable competition in friendly spirit around the globe - thats the idea, no?   

 

Ok, theres still One on One´s and Team vs Team´s - not sure about fair conditions there. Money surely a large plus but same for usual Olympic Games I guess - its a capitalistic world and thats "the line"..

 

Just very sad to see and realize maybe there was a chance missed here, for newer PC games I checked they kinda all fail here systematically, beyond repair. Guess thats part of the problem why some youtubers feel "Speedrunning is dead" - or why most simply stick to these "kid platforms" SNES, Playstation, Console´s - there we might find comparability still -  but PC-Competitive-Speedrunning probably dead.  RIP

 

Still love you guys anyway .. dont blame each other *kisses*

 

 

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12 hours ago, RjY said:

I came up with the two-key strafe50 patch in rboom some years ago

I hope that wasn't a typo. If there is a version of boom (not prboom(-plus)) called rboom with bugfixes and that aformentioned patch, I'd find that very interesting...

 

You meant to say PrBoom, didn't you?

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8 hours ago, kb1 said:

I think the resentment comes from the fact that it takes a move formerly reserved for the elite, and gives it to the masses:

Sigh... this is a deluded opinion that actually shows how poorly you think of others. I already explained exactly what the issue is.

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2 hours ago, Danfun64 said:

I hope that wasn't a typo. If there is a version of boom (not prboom(-plus)) called rboom with bugfixes and that aformentioned patch, I'd find that very interesting...

 

You meant to say PrBoom, didn't you?

 

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9 hours ago, kb1 said:

@RjY Don't be dissin' WiggleFix, man :)

I just wanted you to notice me, senpai...

 

1 hour ago, Danfun64 said:

You meant to say PrBoom, didn't you?

Spoiler

No. But it's not what you want, either. My source port is increasingly minimal. It does what I want and nothing else. I have cheerfully removed thousands of lines of code and a multitude of features, even things that have been part of the vanilla engine since the day it was released. It is therefore utterly worthless to anyone who isn't me. I am totally happy with this and have no plans to release it. I prefer to just send patches to others as issues come up in discussion ("oh I had this too, here's what I did to fix/work around it"). The fact that I was given direct commit access to one upstream patch recipient -- and a second simply because it lives in the same repository -- was in hindsight probably a mistake, even though at the time it felt like the best day of my life.

 

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On 18.05.2017 at 9:54 PM, RjY said:

you certainly can't turn and strafe50 at the same time.

No, you can with -control.

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2 minutes ago, 38_ViTa_38 said:

No, you can with -control.

What is "-control"? Sorry for my ignorance. It doesn't appear to be a PrBoom+ command line option.

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It's not. -control was a special command line option used by external control drivers to tell Doom to check a certain memory location (written to by the external control driver) for input commands.

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Oh, so more or less irrelevant to the context of the quote. I thought he'd found a way to make my patch do something I was certain it did not. But this is just a misunderstanding caused by unclear language. I should have said "the patch does not allow you to..." instead of "you can't...".

 

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The wads in the footer are not saved correctly in case-insensitive filesystems. For example, if you have doom2.wad and record a demo with "-iwad Doom2.Wad" in Windows, prboom-plus won't load the correct wads in OSes that use case-sensitive filesystems, e.g. ext4. Another example.

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Heh that's pretty annoying. What should be done? Convert everything to lower case in the footer and hope there's no-one out there who named their iwads in upper case?

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Find all IWADs available and do string-insensitive comparisons to find the right one if the string-sensitive attempt failed.

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21 minutes ago, Gez said:

Find all IWADs available and do string-insensitive comparisons to find the right one if the string-sensitive attempt failed.

This will work most of the time, but what "case-insensitive" means varies by locale.

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For example, I suck at SR-anything. This option gives me a tool that I would otherwise probably use much less frequently. So, it assists me and my fat fingers and crappy keyboard setup. But, that doesn't make it a cheat - it just gives me the ability to do what everyone else can do, without getting carpal-tunnel syndrome.

But Tech will soon or has already beaten Biology - that would be same as If you say its 100m even if someone strapped from all bodyparts and exchanged by some highTech is not cheating anymore (and there are examples with this being involved already not mentioning the drug stuff, which became a large issue).

Me sucked at using this additional button too and surely my fingers was one of the not handicapped parts - and still I happilly risked getting a carpaltunnel syndrome!  The point of it probably just having not used it before and these very tiny moments of being useful. So in theory Im ok with people claiming to use this today but with turns (SR50 AND TLxy)  it was impossible to do for another half of people.  So that "uh its pre installed I have to use it anyway cause of my fingers" - No then use it the way it gotta be used back then,  get your carpaltunnelsyndrome AND spent the money for some unknown gadgets I never heard of ;)

 

 

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I ran into the issue where friction modifiers are lost after loading a game. I see there was some discussion back in January on it, thought I'd be a bit of a squeaky wheel about it! Friction is a pretty niche feature with not a whole lot of applications, but it's pretty cool too. ;)

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No matter what I try, I can't seem to get mouselook/freelook working in PrBoom-Plus/GLBoom-Plus.  It's enabled in settings but no wad I try allows me to look around like in GZdoom.  What could be the issue?  I have the mouselook key configured as the default "/"

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