Reading this article causes dry heaves

[Janderson]

'Intelligent and civilised behaviour' are culturally conditioned concepts, there is no such thing as (im)morality in nature and therefore humans as animals can do it like they do on the discovery channel etc.

EDIT: I see you've beaten me to it.

[insertwackynamehere]

immoral and moral are defined by the way the general public veiw aspects of society. And in most of the world, or at least the western world, eating fetuses is not considered moral, and that makes it immoral.

[Fletcher`]

AgentSpork said:

Ya, and I also heard a story about a guy who kept human heads in his refridgerator. Refridgerators should be illegal because then nobody could keep human heads in them

That columbine kid shot people because of doom. Lets ban doom so people dont shoot up schools anymore!!!111

[Janderson]

insertwackynamehere said:

immoral and moral are defined by the way the general public veiw aspects of society.

Thats what I said; morality is opinion and nothing more. If the guy was starving and close to death I'm sure this would be a different story; 'American Hero Trapped in Specemine Fridge Forces Himself to Eat Abortions.'

[Bloodshedder]

Hey, um...you guys ever heard of adoption?

[SulfurOccult]

what if the father raped the woman? even pro-lifers will support an abortion then. which i think is stupid. why does the circumstance of the conception effect the rightness/wrongness of aborting the child? (i'm "pro-choice," in case your wondering; though i hate political labels).

(just throwing more bullets into the fire)

[Bloodshedder]

MasterOfPuppets said:

what if the father raped the woman? even pro-lifers will support an abortion then.

Many of them will not.

[Scabbed Angel]

Fredrik said:

If you think it is immoral, say why.

May I simply state that given how tired this argument is, isn't it obvious enough that he shouldn't really need to state why he thinks it's immoral? I highly doubt there'd be a new reason why... sorry for the doubt post btw... but:

[Scabbed Angel]

Danarchy said:

On the argument of abortion, the debate should not be over weather it is immoral or moral, but rather over what the rammifications of it's illegalization on our society are. First of all, it is a violation of women's rights to let it be illegalised. If a woman wishes to chose not to become a mother or not get butchered into sterilization (or to death) in some back-alley clinic, she should be granted that right.

There are enough ways this can be avoided, enough manners of birth control available. There is also abstinence if the possibility of having a child is so terrible. If you're too afraid to get burned, don't play with fireworks. Women's right to chose. Bullshit. It's a women's right to be irresponsible. If they are too big of cowards to be mothers, then they should keep their fucking legs shut*

*Unless they are raped, incect etc... then this is not their choice, so abortion should be an option, or if it will endanger the life of the mother or child anyway. You'll love this, Ralphis, but this is one of the few point I agree with Dubya on. If all you pro "choice"ers were aborted, we wouldn't be blessed with your wonderful... umm... wait I'm seeing a bright side to this whole abortion thing...

[Janderson]

Hmmmm, fucking only to procreate, huh?

[SulfurOccult]

Bloodshedder said:

Many of them will not.

true, but the official policy Bush is trying to make law would allow abortions in instances of rape, incest, and something else i'm not perverted enough to remember.

[myk]

Scabbed Angel said:
Women's right to chose. Bullshit. It's a women's right to be irresponsible.

I'd trust my mother to kill me if at that point, before I ever really was, she felt there was no place for me, and no one can ever know what never will be.

And if it's the right to be irresponsible in respect to social obligation based on the belief in intangible demands of what could be but we will never know, I'd vouch for it, since on the other hand, it is the right to be responsible for her own life and the life of her own childern, where a woman should have more say than a man, as long as her claims are sane, and especially when the embeded child is in her body.

If they are too big of cowards to be mothers, then they should keep their fucking legs shut*

You sound pretty horrid. What is childbearing, some kind of conscription service in the war for life?

Wouldn't you rather be dead than have a mother dump you onto the world out of guilt, peer pressure, or fear? I don't now if I would, but I'd certainly not be one to dictate from the prospect of such a situation.

Hey, lets be holier than thou in respect to the decisions of motherhood when we can't even bear children. The wise would leave the responsibility to the experts and specialists; mothers, mothers to be, and doctors.

[darknation]

there is an arguement that morality is purely asthetic. I mean, if aborted babies looked like sparkling stars and smelled of flowers no one would really complain. In fact, I bet we would be aborting babies in factories and leaving their little corpses in bowls atop the TV.

[Scuba Steve]

Scabbed Angel said:

There are enough ways this can be avoided, enough manners of birth control available.

How about the legions of Pro Life individuals who also don't believe in birth control?

[Scabbed Angel]

First off, Janderson "Hmmmm, fucking only to procreate, huh?"... Not at all... everything has a price... If I choose to do something that may have an unfavorable outcome, I weigh the pros and cons. If the statistics of using accidentally having a child using birth control are low enough for you to enjoy the other facets of having relations with someone, then do it. I do. But be an adult and accept there there is potential responsibility/sacrifice possible in that decision. I do that too.

myk said:

I'd trust my mother to kill me if at that point, before I ever really was, she felt there was no place for me, and no one can ever know what never will be.

Uhh... adoption? If the rest of the world is so bleak that there is no place for you there, your mother should kill herself too while she's at it.

You sound pretty horrid. What is childbearing, some kind of conscription service in the war for life?

I don't follow... what's so horrid? I just think people are weak, and I don't have much respect for a weakness that can be avoided. There are other consequences you can't take back... if you enjoy sky diving or street racing, you must accept there is a possibility that you could die, ie you could face a consequence in doing what you enjoy. I find it horrid that life is so easily disposable.. "Oh you fucked up (pardon my pun) take a pill! Give a few bucks, not a problem! We'll fix you right up, there's no problem here!" I find that horrid. It's not a natural to end the li--- (oh wait, I can't say life for another few months, when it's on the outside... whoops! silly me!) of an unborn child.

Wouldn't you rather be dead than have a mother dump you onto the world out of guilt, peer pressure, or fear? I don't now if I would, but I'd certainly not be one to dictate from the prospect of such a situation.

Hey, lets be holier than thou in respect to the decisions of motherhood when we can't even bear children. The wise would leave the responsibility to the experts and specialists; mothers, mothers to be, and doctors.

Uhh... we have to be physically capable of something to discuss it? Or think about it? Seems like a dim dark future for the Make a Wish Foundation...

mallis said:

there is an arguement that morality is purely asthetic. I mean, if aborted babies looked like sparkling stars and smelled of flowers no one would really complain. In fact, I bet we would be aborting babies in factories and leaving their little corpses in bowls atop the TV.

ROFL... personally I think kids are ugly, so all humor aside....

Scuba Steve said:

How about the legions of Pro Life individuals who also don't believe in birth control?

I can't speak for them, as I myself do believe in birth control. It's like wearing a seatbelt in my earlier metaphor..

[Sharessa]

Scabbed Angel said:

There are enough ways this can be avoided, enough manners of birth control available. There is also abstinence if the possibility of having a child is so terrible. If you're too afraid to get burned, don't play with fireworks. Women's right to chose. Bullshit. It's a women's right to be irresponsible. If they are too big of cowards to be mothers, then they should keep their fucking legs shut*

*Unless they are raped, incect etc... then this is not their choice, so abortion should be an option, or if it will endanger the life of the mother or child anyway. You'll love this, Ralphis, but this is one of the few point I agree with Dubya on. If all you pro "choice"ers were aborted, we wouldn't be blessed with your wonderful... umm... wait I'm seeing a bright side to this whole abortion thing...

Fucking hell, what is wrong with you? Do you expect everyone to be perfect and work like clockwork? Perfectly responsible people can have unwanted pregnacies too you know. Sometimes the bast laid plans fail. Comdoms break, sponges slip, etc. Even the birth control pill isn't 100% effective. The only ways that are completely effective are tubal ligations and IUDs, both which are likely to make you permanantly sterile.

And I don't see how having an abortion is irresponsible either. You're fixing your mistake instead of giving the child away or draining taxpayer money thus making it Somebody Else's Problem.

Finaly, I can tell by the words you use that you are a chauvinist. The opression of women in this country is an epidemic, and you're only spreading the virus.

[Amaster]

It should be noted that the fetus-eating accusation is only that, an accusation. There's no indication in the article that there was conclusive evidence of this act.

Of course, if his clinic was as dingy as the article says, then it's great that it was shut down so as to keep patients safe. Hopefully the measures discussed in the article could help reduce this kind of risk. Im surprised anyone would go to such a place for a procedure, but I guess they may have been desperate.

In case anyone's wondering, I'm pro-choice. Any reason I could give has already been stated by Danarchy, Myk and AndrewB, so I wont bother practically copying and pasting.

Did the article make me sick? Surprisingly no. Humans eat lots of things which are quite odd indeed. Mostly I'd be interested in knowing what made the guy eat a fetus of all things, assuming he actually did it.

Edit: Oh yeah, does anyone have any information on the legality of such an act? I assume it's legal but you never know.

Edit2: Oh and I just remembered hearing about an artist who would cook and eat fetuses on film. Dont have a link on hand unfortunately.

[Sir_Alien]

I hear abortion clinics are a great place to meet loose women.

[SulfurOccult]

you all say "adoption" as if it were some easy alternative.

[Scabbed Angel]

Danarchy said:

What is wrong with you?

Apparently, having an opinion that differs from yours...

Finaly, I can tell by the words you use that you are a chauvinist. The opression of women in this country is an epidemic, and you're only spreading the virus.

I'm not going to get into this again with you Dan... I have my opinions, and that's my right... did I make any judgements of Myk's character because I disagreed with his opinion? No, he, you and everyone else has the right to theirs. I would have rather you simply argued against my points, rather than resorting to character judging. That disapoints me, Dan. I think abortion is the killing of a child, and that PEOPLE, women included should take responibility. No one said adoption is an easy alternative, but no one can argue that it gives that unborn child a better chance than abortion. "What is right is not always easy, what is easy is not always right." Rarely are opinions on such topics changed, and being how this is on Doomworld, I somehow doubt the chance is greater than usual. What you think of me is unfortunate, but inconsequential.

EDIT: Out of curiousity, do you think if a pregnant women is murdered the murderer should be charged with two murders or one?

[Sharessa]

Scabbed Angel said:

Apparently, having an opinion that differs from yours...

I'm not going to get into this again with you Dan... I have my opinions, and that's my right... did I make any judgements of Myk's character because I disagreed with his opinion?

Again? I didn't know we had this argument before, but if we did I apologise. The only reason I insulted you is because of the disrespectful things you said about women, which you apparently didn't even notice: "It's a women's right to be irresponsible. If they are too big of cowards to be mothers, then they should keep their fucking legs shut." It's amazing in this day in age that when a woman gets pregnant ("gets herself pregnant" as they say...always her fault alone), they say she "cannot keep her legs shut", but when a guy knocks up a woman, people will be slapping his back and buying him beer.

No, he, you and everyone else has the right to theirs. I would have rather you simply argued against my points, rather than resorting to character judging. That disapoints me, Dan.

I did argue against your points. Maybe if you weren't avoiding the topic by concentrating on my flighty temper instead of the subject at hand, you'd realise this.

I think abortion is the killing of a child, and that PEOPLE, women included should take responibility.

I don't really thing an embryo is a human considering the fact that it doesn't really even have a functioning brain, which is apparently the recepticle of our conciousness.

You know, I find it kind of ironic that those who are against abortion tend to revere the most prolific abortionist of all - God. Countless miscarriages and stillbirths have happened throughout the ages, which happened all under the will of God if you look at it that way...'he' has been responsible for more pre-natal deaths than every abortion doctor combined. :P

"What is right is not always easy, what is easy is not always right."

The same could be argued in support of abortion as well.

EDIT: Out of curiousity, do you think if a pregnant women is murdered the murderer should be charged with two murders or one?

Just one in my opinion. The embryo/foetus isn't really a living being until the late stages of pregnancy. Not to mention it's kind of redundant to give someone double the sentancing if they're going to be in jail the rest of their lives anyway (or sent to death row in places barbaric enough to still have capitol punishment). And what happens in cases of manslaughter?

I predict you just started a whole other argument here. :P

[baronofhell]

my ex was pregnant with my kid and had an abortion, on my birthday. It doesn't really bother me though, I don't know why

[AndrewB]

Danarchy said:

I don't really thing an embryo is a human considering the fact that it doesn't really even have a functioning brain, which is apparently the recepticle of our conciousness.

FHFS

1) It is human. It doesn't change SPECIES during development.
2) I don't care what you call it. Nobody should be making moral decisions based on a dictionary entry.

Scabbed Angel said:

EDIT: Out of curiousity, do you think if a pregnant women is murdered the murderer should be charged with two murders or one?

It shouldn't be an issue of quantity. It should be a separate, more serious crime.

[Scabbed Angel]

First off Dan, that's much better! Thanks! : D

Danarchy said:

Again? I didn't know we had this argument before, but if we did I apologise. The only reason I insulted you is because of the disrespectful things you said about women, which you apparently didn't even notice: "It's a women's right to be irresponsible. If they are too big of cowards to be mothers, then they should keep their fucking legs shut." It's amazing in this day in age that when a woman gets pregnant ("gets herself pregnant" as they say...always her fault alone), they say she "cannot keep her legs shut", but when a guy knocks up a woman, people will be slapping his back and buying him beer.

To be honest with you, I share your disgust with this. For the record, you'll notice I never said anything exhonerating or congratulating the man on this... then why didn't I bring it up, you ask? Because the man has no part in the abortion decision. If he did (which is s concept I thought about bringing up, but ironically thought it would make me appear the same characteristic you described), I would say something to the effect of "then he should have kept it in his pants". See, I hate what I view as irresponsibility equally. I don't discriminate between gender. What I said was said in the context of the conversation. My omission was simply to avoid irrelevency. In regards to the previous argument, it was a different subject, but there was. . crudeness on both our parts. No big deal, just rememered that you called me the same thing in that debate.

I did argue against your points. Maybe if you weren't avoiding the topic by concentrating on my flighty temper instead of the subject at hand, you'd realise this.

Wasn't avoiding the topic, just got a little derailed on another one...And there really weren't any new points you were making... "mistakes happen" Sure. "Abortion is not irresponsibilty it's fixing a mistake" ...just like pointing the finger at the fetus as if its ummm... "its" fault, instead of allowing for the possibility of life... adoption for example...

You know, I find it kind of ironic that those who are against abortion tend to revere the most prolific abortionist of all - God. Countless miscarriages and stillbirths have happened throughout the ages, which happened all under the will of God if you look at it that way...'he' has been responsible for more pre-natal deaths than every abortion doctor combined. :P

If we are looking at God in the way that he is popularly viewed by the people who belive in/created the concept of Him (which ever way you prefer to look at it), God created the concept of right and wrong, therefore is outside the application of those concepts, therefore could not be held accountable even if He chose to "abort" these lives. I don't really follow your idea that He is physically willing death upon them.. usually it's a physical problem with the mother where her bodu is not strong enough to bear the child... or other external factors. I don't follow where God is responsible... I think your logic in this regard is unfounded.

Just one in my opinion. The embryo/foetus isn't really a living being until the late stages of pregnancy.

I predict you just started a whole other argument here. :P

Not one that I will continue if I did, I only asked to see if your opinions had consistency... You are nothing if not consitent, I must admit.

EDIT: That reminds me, how do you feel about partial birth abortion?

[Bank]

Hmm...Well, even though I support abortion, and the fetuses were already out of the women...wait a sec...what if he...? Well...anyway, I think it was disgusting and quite disturbing, but shouldn't be counted against abortion, just against any creepy guy getting a license...

[Scabbed Angel]

Submerge said:

P.S. anyone ever beat Silent Hill 3?

Hell yeah, about to play it again... LOL if I know what you're getting at...

[Scuba Steve]

Scabbed Angel said:

I can't speak for them, as I myself do believe in birth control. It's like wearing a seatbelt in my earlier metaphor..

You're as much a monster and a murder in the eyes of people who disagree with birth control as we are in yours.

AndrewB said:

It shouldn't be an issue of quantity. It should be a separate, more serious crime.

Good idea. I also think there should be a special, more serious crime category for people who speed 15 miles over the speed limit versus 10 because that's 5 miles per hour more deadly!!

[Scabbed Angel]

Scuba Steve said:

You're as much a monster and a murder in the eyes of people who disagree with birth control as we are in yours.

Considering I've never killed anything, or taking my body to a clinic to have something killed, I think they would be pretty foolish to think so. You can't please everyone *shrugs*

In terms of being a monster, I think a preventative measure is a lesser evil if it must be one at all. Although may I ask, being a pro-choicer, how you would presume to judge for them?

[AndrewB]

Scuba Steve said:

Good idea. I also think there should be a special, more serious crime category for people who speed 15 miles over the speed limit versus 10 because that's 5 miles per hour more deadly!!

So you don't think that hitting a pregnant woman is worse than a hitting a non-pregnant woman.

[Use]

My stance: Those that could abort, should abort. They'd be shitty parents anyway.