30uv1437 - TAS

[entryway]

http://www.geocities.com/e6y/files/doom/my/30uv1437.zip

[Grazza]

Still not skipping map32, then? I'd have thought that was the most obvious thing to do in an improved run.

[entryway]

Still not skipping map32, then?

yes. was rerecorded from 24th level. again.

I'd have thought that was the most obvious thing to do in an improved run.

i did not wish to begin it all over again because it takes away too much time. about 25 hours for this small improvement.

[RamboBones]

Grazza said:

Still not skipping map32, then? I'd have thought that was the most obvious thing to do in an improved run.

How can it be a full doom2 run if you skip a level?

[Grazza]

Because 30uv just means that you run through the game from start to finish on UV. No requirement to visit secret levels. See the compet-n rules and Adam Hegyi succinct comment here. The same logic applies for the episode runs.

The only reason people visit map31 in Doom2 runs is that it is much quicker to reach the secret exit in map15 than the normal one.

[RamboBones]

Grazza said:

Because 30uv just means that you run through the game from start to finish on UV. No requirement to visit secret levels. See the compet-n rules. The same logic applies for the episode runs.

The only reason people visit map31 in Doom2 runs is that it is much quicker to reach the secret exit in map15 than the normal one.

I still think it's cheating to skip a level, even an 'unncesseary' secret one. That's one of the reasons why I don't particularly like Vile's 30nm2956 run because he misses a level. I believe that all the levels should be done (regardless of what competn says), but that's me.

Edit: Just finnished watching the run, well the end of it anyway. Must say I'm a little disappointed by you not using your fist to kill the zombiemen on bloodfalls anymore but apart from that looks very nice. The spirit world had some definite improvements to it so good job. Makes me want to continue my built run

[myk]

RamboBones said:
I still think it's cheating to skip a level, even an 'unncesseary' secret one. That's one of the reasons why I don't particularly like Vile's 30nm2956 run because he misses a level. I believe that all the levels should be done (regardless of what competn says), but that's me.

That's why you have different categories; speed is just that, as fast as possible and nothing else matters. On the other hand, you have to go through the secret maps on categories like max and NM100, where getting to everything is the objective. Such differences help tell the categories (and their runs) appart.

Skipping a map, if it's possible, is no different than using tricks to skip areas, except even more basic. You might as well be arguing that runs that use item grabs, strafe jumps and other techiques shouldn't be considered good because they skip portions of the game that were originally meant to be passed through.

[Angus Thermopyle]

RamboBones said:

I still think it's cheating to skip a level, even an 'unncesseary' secret one. That's one of the reasons why I don't particularly like Vile's 30nm2956 run because he misses a level.

It's neither cheating nor cheap. Map32 is only a filling station. Skipping it means, that you do NOT start Map16 with 200/200 and 600 cells. With this route the whole thing is much harder to play and more exciting to watch.

[entryway]

RamboBones said:

Must say I'm a little disappointed by you not using your fist to kill the zombiemen on bloodfalls

:)))

[Fredrik]

RamboBones said:

I still think it's cheating to skip a level, even an 'unncesseary' secret one.

Then it should be called "32uv" rather than "30uv", shouldn't it?

[entryway]

or Ultra-Violence speed movie of all Doom2 in 14:37

[entryway]

When you do something - it would be desirable to do it completely.
30uv1617.zip, 30nm1849.zip, pltassdl.zip - as examples.

[Fredrik]

entryway said:

or Ultra-Violence speed movie of all Doom2 in 14:37

Well, you don't visit all rooms :)

[Grazza]

entryway said:

When you do something - it would be desirable to do it completely.
30uv1617.zip, 30nm1849.zip, pltassdl.zip - as examples.

Then by your own logic, how do you account for your decision to skip the secret levels in your Ultimate Doom TAS episode runs? I'm not meaning to be argumentative - I just don't see any consistent logic here. ;)

I presume the only reason Sedlo visited map32 in his 30uv and 30nm was that it was considered the best route at the time (which is not the case any more).

In the 30hr (TAS), 30ev, 30pl and 30mm runs (compet-n), the secret levels are skipped, and I don't recall anyone suggesting there is anything odd about that.

Istvan Pataki did a NM TAS run through the whole of Plutonia where he visited both secret levels. He didn't call it a 30pn though, but a "nightmare run on all levels of plutonia" or "a 32 level nightmare run on Plutonia". (He did a similar UV TAS run too, and also on Evilution.)

No one would visit the secret levels in Ultimate Doom episode runs unless they they had some megatrick that made this quicker.

If the Doom2 map15 exits had been the other way round (and if map32 hadn't been a quick and easy fill-up map), I doubt there would have ever been any confusion on this point.

My view is that in a speedrun, it is simply ugly to spend time doing anything that delays you reaching the exit.

[entryway]

2 Grazza
I completely agree with you. 32-nd level is only my small whim. If I'll begin it all over again - I'll skip 32-nd level.

[Schneelocke]

Da capo, da capo! :)

[emailking]

Personally, I always wondered why the players *did* go to map 32, especially on UV. It looked like it would be much quicker without it. But I guess it was pretty hard at the time too.

[VinceDSS]

I still think that the TXT with you demo is not clear about TAS...

[myk]

Hadn't even seen that, since I don't watch cheated recordings except for specific reasons.

Recorded using PRBoom 2.2.3 with tiny changes of source codes for more comfortable record.

What did the changes do, put a softer pillow under your butt? Seriously, what the fuck?

This is great help for bullshit like the one we found in the article at the wiki, kudos.

[Grazza]

I agree it's inadequate, and doesn't live up to what I requested here. I think particular attention should be drawn to the fact that permanent strafe-50 (while turning) is impossible with Doom2.exe, and this differentiates it from "traditional" TAS demos, such as Sedlo's.

[myk]

In a way, strafe50 is the only thing mentioned. It doesn't say anything about "TAS" or the specific features used.

For clarity it would also be better if any modified engine by a "third pary" (anyone aside from the current developers of the main source of a project, unless it's handed over completely) were renamed; PrBoom isn't being called Boom by Proff and cph. And neither was Proff's initial PrBoom named Boom, for example, so it's easy to tell them appart right away. Like, Budko's modification could be called BuBoom or BPrBoom. The GPL doesn't require renaming builds, but for the purposes of clarity and respect, you go a long way by doing so. Especially in presenting something in clear specifically named way as opposed to saying "tiny changes of source codes" when those changes are a result of a lot of work on getting to know the demo recording format, and have an almost infinite effect on recordings produced.

[Grazza]

It certainly has caused quite a lot of confusion over the years that there was no name change between Prboom 2.02 and Prboom 2.1.0, as it changed fundamentally at that stage (different ports were merged). On the other hand, the name change between Boom 2.02 and Prboom 2.02 has obscured the fact that it is an almost direct Windows port - I get the impression that a lot of people don't realize that.

I'd suggest PrABoom as a name for Andrey's version. The AB is his initials, it is a word that can be actually be said, and it includes the "Pr" to show what it is derived from. It would certainly make it easier to refer to than "Andrey Budko's modified Prboom".

On the other hand, what Andrey has added is all optional (aside from a few bug fixes and removal of some annoying glitches - things that will hopefully also be fixed in the next official release), so I'd say this is a genuine "version" rather than a new port. Overall, I think Andrey has added enough to justify a new name, but not to necessitate it.

myk said:

In a way, strafe50 is the only thing mentioned.

The mention of strafe-50 could be taken to mean that he used the equivalent of a strafe-50 mousedriver - that would have been my understanding if I hadn't examined the demos with LMPC.

[myk]

Grazza said:
It certainly has caused quite a lot of confusion over the years that there was no name change between Prboom 2.02 and Prboom 2.1.0, as it changed fundamentally at that stage (different ports were merged).

True; it's either caused people to say "I tried PrBoom but all the demos desynch!" or obscured the fact that there is a pretty straight port of Boom to Windows available, where people looked at PrBoom's latest releases and forgot about that plain one.

Yet here we're talking about a variant, not a version (generally represented by numbers and as a continuation of a particular project) and names are used all the time by people in many contexts; differentiation does not hurt. A variant is a side project that takes the first project and modifies something. Like CSDoom or ZDaemon, for example. Strictly, any Doom source based engine is a variant: But they aren't all called Doom.exe. Heh.

The changes here may be optional and might only include a few lines of code, but the main uses of such changes make them quite fundamental: You can't produce a demo like that using PrBoom, at all. (And the phrase I just used only gets weirded out now that people call these variants PrBoom.)

My point is, PrBoom is a project headed by Proff and cph; any variants that are going to be presented separately to the public should be clearly differentiated. Especially if they have any point. Other than that, you can't really start being nitpicky because a variant of PrBoom can be anything from merely changing ENDBOOM, the 6-key graphics and the default settings, to something that purposely alters the physics and disposition of the entire game, or even the way it works on a system.

Erm, talking about variants, pardon the derailing; or not so much as pardon if one values the importance of the matter brought up.

[Grazza]

myk said:

The changes here may be optional and might only include a few lines of code, but the main uses of such changes make them quite fundamental: You can't produce a demo like that using PrBoom, at all.

Actually, most of the modifications in Andrey's version are non-TAS things, and this is what makes it of such great value IMO. There are visual options (most of which I have turned off most of the time, but it's nice that they're there), and things that are of great use when recording non-TAS demos (e.g. less hassle when exiting, easier to test afterwards), or when watching demos (e.g. variable playback speed, skip level, walkcam).

Those are the reasons why it is my default port - it provides the functionality that I'd like from the official version, together with some useful additional features, and without some annoyances.