Favorite TC?

[Scuba Steve]

Nmn said:

It's only my personal opinion about it Skoobz. A TOTAL conversion has NOTHING from Doom (like Chosen) and as You said-BD has a texture or two (look at the sewers level) :(

If that's the case, chosen had a texture or two from doom still in it. So it is now instantly disqualified.

[Nuxius]

The D64 TC. That was easy enough.

[myk]

AgentSpork said:
The Doom64 TC. Ha!

Heh, perhaps you can call it, QDoom, and those other ZDoom Half-life and Star Wars mods, TCs, but I wouldn't say they're excellent examples of such. Maybe they are well done and fun in themselves, but as TCs they aren't doing much; just porting, ripping or imitating quite similar FPS games.

[Nmn]

Scuba Steve said:

If that's the case, chosen had a texture or two from doom still in it. So it is now instantly disqualified.

No Doom in textures in Chosen. I'm sure. Unless I see a screenshot.

[Scuba Steve]

Nmn said:

No Doom in textures in Chosen. I'm sure. Unless I see a screenshot.

I haven't played it for a while but it doesn't matter. My point is still valid... if Chosen had used one Doom texture, say Cratop2 or a wood texture once... would you then cease to call it a TC?

[myk]

By that definition (replacing everything) it sounds like JDoom with hi res textures and models is a TC, heh.

[wildweasel]

Who cares if they used one texture from the original game? If it ain't broke (from the author's perspective)...

[DooMer87]

i think Goldeneye was spectacular. But, however, it remains unfinished. I do know it was made by a newdoom member, i just ignored the newdoom crap and downloaded. I loved the game for n64 when i was a kid.

[Nmn]

Scuba Steve said:

I haven't played it for a while but it doesn't matter. My point is still valid... if Chosen had used one Doom texture, say Cratop2 or a wood texture once... would you then cease to call it a TC?

In my opinion, yes, it'd be partial (maybe most partial). Total is total ;)

My point is valid as well-Chosen = TC, Batman = PC.

[myk]

Nmn said:
Total is total ;)

Sounds like those nitpicky people who can't stand a wrinkle on a spot on anything and go nuts if anything isn't neat and polished and in the place they expected.

The whole point of a TC is that it transforms the game into a different theme (Aliens, Pac-Man, Batman, Chex Quest, Western, etc.) with its own particular functionality; not an obsessive need to replace every little resource. In no way does using a DOOM resource that evidently fits the TC (it's easy with generic textures) make it less of a TC. You wouldn't even have to change all the weapons; a shotgun, for example, would certainly be suitable in some sort of contemporary urban TC, and as long as DOOM's shotgun goes along well with the rest of the new resources, you'd have a good TC. Or you could well modify DOOM resources for the TC, and those modifications might be slight, yet fitting.

You can judge a TC for how well the resources fit in; sometimes they're cheaply done or sometimes some are good but seem to stick out unnaturally, but that's a judgment on quality, not on whether they are TCs. Plus, we could be talking about taking resources from some pre-established place, like another game, and I don't see how that is any different than taking it from DOOM (aside from possible copyright infringments) as long as it fits well in the TC's theme and structure.

Also, a TC could well still be a TC, but a choppy one because it fails to really replace important things; like uses some DOOM monsters or weapons simply because changing them seemed like too much work to the author. Some early TCs suffered from this; they were rather incomplete or kind of hacked up looking.

A PC is a rather vague thing, but it refers to something that is basically still DOOM (the marine is the hero, you're still in the demon infested Phobos, or so and so.) Like for example the doomguy himself, with his BFG, fighting against Star Trek baddies attacking after Hell did, or the player as an Imp against marines, soldiers and robots, with an additional group of rogue Cacodemons that hate the Imp and want him dead. You still in the same "universe" and many of the things are still the same (weapons, enemies, places, whatever.) So STRAIN is pretty much a PC, though rather vaguely because in the end it's just a PWAD with lots of DeHackEd work (the theme DOOM merges with is custom and not too well defined.) Still, "PC" is very vague and in a way even Gothic DM is a PC (it clearly defines it's own particular and distinct world but the ordinary marines made their way there to duke it out.)

[Scuba Steve]

Your analogy fall one step farther nmn. Suppose I make "Solid Colour Doom" and just change every entry to a solid colour. Is that then a TC? Chosen only replaces 10 levels... wouldn't a TC in your opinion need to replace all 32?

Myk's interpretation still has a gray area, but is pretty solid a definition. A TC Should change the feeling of the game as well as provide a large ammount of new artwork to convince the player of this new world. There's obviously no way to say "Yes Action Doom is a TC" or "No Strain is not a PC" but I think your definition is too rigid. If we applied that to all wads, there would probably be only 2 TCs ever made.

[Nmn]

Ok then, You managed to bend my definition :) I qualify Batman Doom as a TC then. It has zero doom feeling (except the bloody sewers level)

I don't think a TC should replace all 32 levels.. just create enough and no need to wander beyond.. I think.

[xit-vono]

Well imo a TC is a total conversion which means nothing has been used from doom. If something is used then that is a PC. Personally I don't care if a few textures are used it just wouldn't be a TC.

[esselfortium]

xit-vono said:

Well imo a TC is a total conversion which means nothing has been used from doom. If something is used then that is a PC. Personally I don't care if a few textures are used it just wouldn't be a TC.

I think it's called a "total conversion" rather than a "total replacement", because the intent is to create a game with a completely new mood and overall atmosphere, not to replace every single resource in the IWAD. Of course, most graphics would need to be replaced in order to accomplish something that could be called a TC, but it seems pointless for a TC to need to replace Doom textures they would have used with imitations of said textures, just so that they can call it complete.

[VileSlay]

my fave was alien tc. It felt like alien and worked well. I actually went to try and play it last week, but found that for some reason I don't have it anymore.

[icemann]

Doom64 TC by a LONG SHOT. Absolutely loved that from start to finish.

Arctic Wolf would be my 2nd pic.

[KwadDamyj]

This reminds me...Can anyone tell me how to load all of the Aliens TC files on the vanilla DooM95 launcher that comes with the Collector's Edition? I want to play it the 'plain' way, for I dislike playing it on ZDooM. I can install WADs/DEHs on the launcher, yes, but it apparently only lets me choose and load one at a time...

Sorry for being mildly off-topic.

[myk]

You can't; the only way would be to open Doom95 with a hex editor and somehow make all the changes that the DeHackEd patch applies to Doom. Use PrBoom or something like that if you want to use a more classical engine than ZDoom to play it.

[KwadDamyj]

*sigh* Ah well...Thanks. I think I tried getting Boom or maybe PrBoom to work on my terminal. Didn't quite work. Ah well...I'll figure out something.

[m0l0t0v]

Well imo a TC is a total conversion which means nothing has been used from doom. If something is used then that is a PC. Personally I don't care if a few textures are used it just wouldn't be a TC.

Lets look at it from a historical point of view shall we...

Justin Fisher came up with the phrase "Total Conversion" (TC) in 1994.

Well if he defined the "Aliens TC" as a TC, who are we to argue with that. The guy invented the whole concept, therefore he could call it whatever he wanted.

Deducting from this point leads us to the conclusion that any wad that replaces more maps and textures than the Aliens TC must also be a total conversion. Wads that replace less qualify as partial conversions.

The word "Total" might be a bit confusing, so I suggest someone should introduce a new term for a wad that replaced ALL textures and ALL maps. Such wad however do not exist (yet). It seems to me the first person to make such a wad has the right to come up with the name...

[myk]

m0l0t0v said:
Lets look at it from a historical point of view shall we...

To view the historical point of view you have to consider the meaning the term takes back then and on. Indeed some resources are reused or modified a bit, but also the conversion is thematic, and a TC could well replace less things than Alien TC but equally manage to turn DOOM into some other scenario unrelated to DOOM's. The Aliens concept is already similar to DOOM's, so it doesn't really suffer much if some things are reused. It's total because it's now Aliens instead of DOOM, even if some DOOM resources were fitting to use. Using DOOM's resources in a Bugs Bunny TC would be less effective, unless one were to give them a more toon-like texturing.

Most wads are just map sets that make no effort to change the DOOM theme into something else, but some do that specifically. Those are TCs, and it doesn't matter whether they dump all the DOOM resources or they use some, as long as the conversion is done (badly or effectively.)

What superloud4 said about "total replacement" was on target.

The definition of PC doesn't matter too much and is quite subsidiary of TC's definition, not being based on the amount of resources changed.

Finally, the term conversion is implying you're taking some existing thing, and turning it into another. The theme you're porting into the "doom format" should be something discernible, such as a movie of a comic book series. It doesn't invalidate a TC to a concept you created, but the term wouldn't exist without the idea that you're picking up something and putting it wholesale into DOOM.

[GavinJCD]

Mockery, although it was never finished...

And MEGADOOM!

[Veddge]

My favorite TC (hopefully the definition has been all worked out ;) would be Action Doom, with Batman Doom a close second. Action Doom is impressive for mixing a gameplay style not attempted before into First Person. I also love Chosen and, the original, Aliens Doom. How could I forget Fistfull of Doom, I absolutely adore that TC as well (or is that a PC :)

[TheLazenby]

My favorite by far is Doom 64, but my second choice would be "Sonic Robo Blast 2" or "Sonic Doom", tied. I couldn't even believe that SRB2 was based on Doom... I mean, it's a 3rd person game!