Back with a Vengence?

[Janderson]

I was thinking about Karma and whether it worked through other humans so I thought of this topic.

When do you feel that revenge should be carried out? Has it ever occured to you spontaneously when you are not normally a grudge bearing/ aggressive person?

What are your attitudes to revenge? Should it be served with varying warmth depending on the circumstances, (warm with the people who simply annoy, cold with the people who actually mess with you) or should it always be frozen solid? Planned or whim?

Any stories?

[VileSlay]

one time in high school me and some friends of mine jumped a guy cuz he stole my very first discman during gym class. I had saved up for it and only had it two weeks. we kicked the crap out of him in a one of the staircases and I got my discman back. we were all wearing either docks or jump boots, so he got pretty crunched. over all it was pretty satifying. :D

[pilottobombadier]

VileSlay said:

one time in high school me and some friends of mine jumped a guy cuz he stole my very first discman during gym class. I had saved up for it and only had it two weeks. we kicked the crap out of him in a one of the staircases and I got my discman back. we were all wearing either docks or jump boots, so he got pretty crunched. over all it was pretty satifying. :D

Indeed. In cases of great disrespect, I think that revenge should be carried out. If oyu're a piece of shit, you should be treated like one.

[wildweasel]

I'd agree with Pilottobombadier...revenge is practically a necessity if there is severe injustice being dealt.

[Fredrik]

Vengeance should always be carried out -- but it should be at least twice as hard, to compensate for the evil inherent in doing bad stuff for no reason in the first place. The preventive success of this ethical schema, were more people to follow it, would boggle the mind!

[VileSlay]

Fredrik said:

Vengeance should always be carried out -- but it should be at least twice as hard, to compensate for the evil inherent in doing bad stuff for no reason in the first place. The preventive success of this ethical schema, were more people to follow it, would boggle the mind!

hence the combat boot stomping we gave his ass. vengeance is sometimes a necessary evil. I don't think the world could have advanced the way it did without revenge. why do you think we fight wars? thats revenge on a grand scale.

just remembered another revenge story, though not as brutal as my previous one. I used to go to a lot of house parties and the rule was who ever fell asleep first got pranked. well I had been blessed with a sick tolerance and a vampire like sleep cycle so I was normally up after most of the partygoers crashed. one time I had a bad couple of days leading into the party and I ended up crashing pretty early, though not the first (I had already taken part in that prank).

well, you know those big travel cups with the lid and big flexi straw? someone thought it would be funny if they filled it wit ice water and placed the straw in my nose hoping I would breath it in a bit of water and choke a bit. I knew who it was because I did it to that person before for falling asleep first at another party and he said he'd get me back. well, the guy didn't put enough water in there to travel up the straw when I breathed and eventuallly he passed out in the same room and I woke up because the cup started sweating.

seeing as how this moron fell out with a bottle of absolut in his hand I knew that I had him. he was so toasted I was able to drag him across the room and place him in a compromising position with another guy who royally pissed me off earlier that night. I wish I still had the pictures. >D

[Captain Red]

Eye for eye = world blind.

Peace out.

[Fredrik]

VileSlay said:

hence the combat boot stomping we gave his ass. vengeance is sometimes a necessary evil. I don't think the world could have advanced the way it did without revenge. why do you think we fight wars? thats revenge on a grand scale.

Necessary how? Other than to momentarily feel better personally (which would be a good excuse for rape)?

Are you saying wars are necessary? Certainly, no war that has been fought out of revenge was. World War II comes to mind. The Germans sure thought a bit of revenge was justified.

Granted, the world would not have progressed the way it did, but I'm not willing to agree about that being a good thing...

[myk]

VileSlay said:
I don't think the world could have advanced the way it did without revenge. why do you think we fight wars? thats revenge on a grand scale.

Revenge is very useful, and doesn't even have to be real, and in war is always aggrandized and deviated into something much more useful for those really interested in war for whatever goal they envision. Like in the way Nazi Germany canalized reasons for revenge into segregation and the militarization of the State under one party. Another example is Argentina in the early 80s, where the dictatorship pooled the public mind's attention to retake a couple islands that had been appropiated by the English in the first half of the 19th century, attempting divert the populance from the failing economy. Or you have the USA in the last few years, where the destruction of the twin towers helped to invade the oil rich Middle East as "revenge against those towelhead terrorists."

Generally, war is when hegemonic groups of power desiring economic expansion rile up some mongs with bullshit in order to get them ready to become cannon fodder, or to pay (or work) for a big chunk of the war costs.

[Job]

Every wronged person has a moral obligation...no, duty, to carry out vengeance for every injustice not only for punitive reasons but preventive ones as well.

[AirRaid]

Captain Red said:

Eye for eye = world blind.

Peace out.

As opposed to only letting the "bad evil people" see. Mhm.

Besides. It isn't revenge. It's punishment.

[myk]

In a world where Talion's law is enforced do they have official rapists to rape the rapists, cannibals to eat the cannibals, bigots to discriminate the racists, and whatnot?

[F8al 4ce]

Vengeance is like ice cream, best served cold, if left outside and alone too long it melts and loses satisfaction value. The old saying that everyone will get what’s coming to them is true, but it doesn’t hurt to speed up the process. I suppose the timing to which vengeance is served and the way it is served all depends upon the degree to which you were offended…..

[VileSlay]

Fredrik said:

Necessary how? Other than to momentarily feel better personally (which would be a good excuse for rape)?

Are you saying wars are necessary? Certainly, no war that has been fought out of revenge was. World War II comes to mind. The Germans sure thought a bit of revenge was justified.

Granted, the world would not have progressed the way it did, but I'm not willing to agree about that being a good thing...

it was necessary because the guy was douche that not only ripped me off but other guys as well. he also thought he could intimidate me and push me around, so there needed to be a message.

are wars necessary? in some ways yes. I like this one quote from the GWAR's bio. "and the master took a shit, and thus the universe was born. but that was not enough. he had to wipe, and what a better way to wipe than war." since we have no natural predators, we have to prey on ourselves. humanities nature for war, violent reprisals, and land rape is how we take part in natural selection.

our world has progressed through many means, both positive and negative. either way it moves foward. sometimes the attrocities that humanity commits breeds more attrocity and sometimes it brings about positive change.

[myk]

VileSlay said:
are wars necessary? in some ways yes. I like this one quote from the GWAR's bio. "and the master took a shit, and thus the universe was born. but that was not enough. he had to wipe, and what a better way to wipe than war."

GWAR is a Kiss style clown band. Oh, wait, let's take their commercial mock fascism as a self-enlightenment guide.

since we have no natural predators,

That's not relevant; other animals also kill each other for resources or territory, as commonly as we do, if not more.

we have to prey on ourselves.

Cannibals are very rare, reportedly psychopaths or in ritaulistic procedures (pretty much equivalent to scoial psychopathy.) Occasionally desperation will make cannibals, but that happens to any species capable of eating flesh. And more easily among others; underfed fowl in a pen will almost predictably peck at wounded or weakened fellows for a slowly lethal meal, and some reptiles always prey on the young of their own species.

humanities nature for war, violent reprisals, and land rape is how we take part in natural selection.

Evidently self regulation of all kinds and struggle of different sorts affect species survival and variation, but naturally among other factors. By quite far most relations between humans are not of violent nature, and their struggle with other species and factors in the environment is greater than with themselves. Wars cause only a bit of death and change compared to a myriad economic activities which are more fundamental and relevant. War's image is aggrandized because of its impacting nature and is usually a sympthom of more crucial technological and social developments. War (and other abuse) also likes to take credit for things because of its ugly nature; it needs to cover up the damage with an image of progress, in an attempt to avoid criticism or a backlash.

There's a cheap cultural trend which takes concepts like "natural selection" to answer the meaning of social or natural events or developments. Such a use is beneath what some call "religion" in being dogmatic rubbish, and is as far from science and a critical perspective as any stale myth can be.

[VileSlay]

myk said:

GWAR is a Kiss style clown band. Oh, wait, let's take their commercial mock fascism as a self-enlightenment guide.

ok, I'm not gonna defend GWAR to you because no matter what I say you already have your opinion on them and I can't change that, but as far as that quote goes I was not being serious and not trying to pose that as some enlightening statement. I was just being an ass and trying to make another attempt at humor.

That's not relevant; other animals also kill each other for resources or territory, as commonly as we do, if not more.

yes it is because predation is a natural means of population control that doesn't apply to humans as it does to other species on the planet.

Cannibals are very rare, reportedly psychopaths or in ritaulistic procedures (pretty much equivalent to scoial psychopathy.) Occasionally desperation will make cannibals, but that happens to any species capable of eating flesh. And more easily among others; underfed fowl in a pen will almost predictably peck at wounded or weakened fellows for a slowly lethal meal, and some reptiles always prey on the young of their own species.

yes I'm aware of that. I did a study on cannibalism in pop culture and read extensively on the subject, but I was not talking about predation in a literal sense. beside the other natural means of population control like disease, old age, and accidental death, there is no other species that kill more humans other than man. even though its not for food humans do prey on other humans, whether it be to take their property, dignity, or life.

Evidently self regulation of all kinds and struggle of different sorts affect species survival and variation, but naturally among other factors. By quite far most relations between humans are not of violent nature, and their struggle with other species and factors in the environment is greater than with themselves. Wars cause only a bit of death and change compared to a myriad economic activities which are more fundamental and relevant. War's image is aggrandized because of its impacting nature and is usually a sympthom of more crucial technological and social developments. War (and other abuse) also likes to take credit for things because of its ugly nature; it needs to cover up the damage with an image of progress, in an attempt to avoid criticism or a backlash.

yes I agree with you. by and far there has been more done to advance humanity than war. war has only been a piece in mans progression on earth, but since the thread subject was vegeance and I brought up war as a form of revenge I was only continuing on that line. most of humanity would say the world would be better off without war, but sometimes violent conflict is nessecary in order to quell lawlessness or break free from oppressive governments.

There's a cheap cultural trend which takes concepts like "natural selection" to answer the meaning of social or natural events or developments. Such a use is beneath what some call "religion" in being dogmatic rubbish, and is as far from science and a critical perspective as any stale myth can be.

I'm not cheaply throwing natural selection out there. I'm sure you know full well what natural selection is all about. it is natural development of a system due to changes in natural variables, such as disease, climate, mating cycles, social heirarchy, etc. but I guess I should ammend what I said earlier. humanity really doesn't take part in natural selection. I should call what humanity is doing in the world artificial selection by forcing biological, environmental, and genetic changes instead of letting them occur. at least thats how I see it.

[Murdoch]

I believe in justice, not vengenance. It can be hard to tell the two apart sometimes.

And karma is a delusion derived from the natural way people react. Be a good guy and sooner or later other good people will have your back when you need help. Be a prick and sooner or later someone will kick your ass.

[Regen]

So true. the people walking around with a chip on there shoulder half the time are allready thinking in a vengeful way nine times out of ten. even before something happens to them, and the result is usualy blown out of proportion (criminal) vengeance.

[myk]

VileSlay said:
yes it is because predation is a natural means of population control that doesn't apply to humans as it does to other species on the planet.

Predation does not apply to every species; in some instances species will be free of predation in their niche, or predation will have little or no impact on their population. My "not relevant" was about the fact that there are other species that kill themselves, like we do.

humanity really doesn't take part in natural selection. I should call what humanity is doing in the world artificial selection by forcing biological, environmental, and genetic changes instead of letting them occur.

"Natural selection" is inherent to all genetic material. "Artificial" activity is natural, and we are not in control. Genetic activity is all about interaction; and you might as well say we are the artificial result of the interaction between unicelular beings (as we are composed of more than one genetic code each.) Nature is "artificial" because there are no rules for it; and if this weren't so, we wouldn't have ever new variation like we do. Life is never the same.

[VileSlay]

myk said:

Predation does not apply to every species; in some instances species will be free of predation in their niche, or predation will have little or no impact on their population. My "not relevant" was about the fact that there are other species that kill themselves, like we do.

ok, I see were you were going with that now.

"Natural selection" is inherent to all genetic material. "Artificial" activity is natural, and we are not in control. Genetic activity is all about interaction; and you might as well say we are the artificial result of the interaction between unicelular beings (as we are composed of more than one genetic code each.) Nature is "artificial" because there are no rules for it; and if this weren't so, we wouldn't have ever new variation like we do. Life is never the same.

I don't think selective breeding is considered natural. look at domesticated dogs, for example. that was deliberate mixing of genetic material to achieve desired results that would not occur in nature. the undesireable results are considerd negative selection and are usually disposed of or fixed so those traits aren't passed down.

of course we are not in 100% control. one of my favorite sayings is "chaos is the natural order of the universe." artificial activity is not natural because it's trying to defy the true chaotic nature of things. it's not the natural biological process but the fact that we try our damndest to to take control of everything around us and thats whats artificial. thats why we have concepts like war and vengeance because of our concious desire to manipulate our world. either way all we're doing here is debating semantics here.

[Fredrik]

Everything we do is natural and part of the biological process. What is considered artificial or conscious is only illusively so.

As for "chaos is the natural order of the universe", and "artificial activity is not natural because it's trying to defy the true chaotic nature of things", you're right on in one sense. (Second law of thermodynamics.) But life as a whole, not just human activity, is a process that exports entropy / deletes information / increases local order. I don't see why life in general, or other such processes with this property, should be considered artificial, so you might want to narrow your definitions.

[MacWadMaker]

Depends on what was done to you... I personally belive that revenge/vengance is OK as long as you can justify it to yourself. If you are going to feel bad about it for the rest of your life, don't do it! If you just can't wait to get your payback, go get it!

[Alboroto]

A few quotes

Vengeance is mine, I will repay, saith the Lord. - Romans 12:19

"La vengeance est un plat qui se mange froid"

Vengeance on a dumb brute!" cried Starbuck, "that simply smote thee from blindest instinct! Madness! To be enraged with a dumb thing, Captain Ahab, seems blasphemous." . . . "Talk not to me of blasphemy, man; I'd strike the sun if it insulted me. For could the sun do that, then I could do the other." - Moby-Dick

Revenge is best dealt with by forgetting it. - Japanese Buddhism

If we practice an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth, soon the whole world will be blind and toothless. - Mahatma Gandhi

[pilottobombadier]

Alboroto said:

A few quotes
If we practice an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth, soon the whole world will be blind and toothless. - Mahatma Gandhi

In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.

[Submerge]

You just reminded me of a story about a man visiting a valley full of eyeless people. These people had adapted to living without sight, and the visitor was unable to fit in. eventually, the people of the village discovered that he had eyes, but they didn't know what the hell they were for, nor did they give him any advantage over them. The visitor's talk of being superior to the blind people, and of the outside world (the blind people believed that the world was an enormous cave), was eventually figured out as being brought on by insanity, due to those "harmful spheres" rubbing up against his brain. So they decided they needed to be removed, for his own good. To be honest, it was so long ago that I read this story.... I can't remember if he left the valley for good, or got his eyes dug out.

neat little story though.