It is done =D

[Naan]

Great job, even if I've played only the first map.

[Dittohead]

My point was that if Espi wanted to add a higher level of detail he could have, but that would probably have broken the vanilla capabilities. Instead, he did the best he could with the minimum resources and still made it look really good. Hence why it's impressive that it works in vanilla doom. This has nothing to do with "vanilla=better" because its just impressive in it's own right.

And yeah, a lot of vanilla maps do suck but I think you missed my point entirely.

[myk]

Scuba Steve said:
It takes the same level of skill to make a good level for a port without restrictions.

You can't easily compare levels of skill when doing different things, but yes, in either case great things require great skill. Granted both cases are add-ons for DOOM and share many specs and qualities, but they also have features (or lack of) that tell them appart.

I hate the "vanilla = better" mentality. Anyone who uses the original exe TWELVE YEARS after the initial release is a fool. It runs in vanilla, great, it's not like anyone is stupid enough to run doom2.exe -file sid.wad

Yeah, argh! Those wierdos, like... like gay people!

But unfotunately, oh wise one, you must do with your bile as you will, as these fools seem to be quite present hereabouts, on this network of interrelated DOOM Internet sites, servers, and channels.

Espi's map is great because it has gorgeous aesthetics, brilliant artwork and fantastic architecture. It has nothing to do with vanilla compatibility, however impressive that might be.

Impressive? You sound mildly contradictory. But aside from that, I find the statement rather pointless, since the tools and specs used always make a difference when judging a design. What makes a DOOM map great or appealing is inherent to the way DOOM is made, and is different from what you'll expect from other games and other things. You will appreaciate things different according to their medium. An specific engine is a medium, different from other engines in features and possibilities (relatively added, absent, or causally varied.)

But anyway, it's quite healthy when a "community" keeps its roots quite alive. That does not weaken any further or different development in relation to those roots. On the contrary, it makes it more substantial and enduring. Often people coming up with "new" things will get a bit enthusiastic and then annoyed if their thing wasn't embraced by their conceived majority. In sake of their mental health and best interaction, though, they should keep working on it, appreciating it, and letting those who prefer it embrace it in time, instead of berating others for liking what they were here for in the first place (simply and plainly DOOM.)

Few people that stay here enough really have a stagnated mentality; "old school" design and speedrunning is as developed as any other "school" or engine fanbase we have here, each in their own way. Naturally since it's based around the most plain or pure form of the game, it's going to solidly persist in one way or another pretty much by default.

[Scuba Steve]

myk said:

Yeah, argh! Those wierdos, like... like gay people!

What do gays have to do with anything?

[sargebaldy]

Personally I think by the time a map VPOs it probably has too much detail anyway, since Doom is too cartoonish for it to look right. Maintaining vanilla standards is a good way to keep things from looking overboard, and actually when I'm forced to change something to kill some VPOs it usually makes things look better. The other nice thing about vanilla maps is that you don't have to worry about using some specific port to play it. If something is for ZDoom, chances are I'm not going to play it.

[Dittohead]

And detailing smaller than 8 pixels per square usually just muddies up the look anyway - especially if you're not using a OpenGL supported port.

[Ismaele]

I already downloaded the .WAD and I can't wait to play it... :) ...but unfortunately I haven't got enough free time! :( But I hope to play and review it soon.

[Graf Zahl]

sargebaldy said:

Personally I think by the time a map VPOs it probably has too much detail anyway,

...and I think you are talking nonsense. There's nothing wrong with highly detailed levels as long as it doesn't affect playability (and no, playability does not mean that a map is suitable for speedrunning!)

The other nice thing about vanilla maps is that you don't have to worry about using some specific port to play it. If something is for ZDoom, chances are I'm not going to play it.

You know what? Those who map for those ports really don't care whether one person more or less is playing their level.

[Scuba Steve]

Eliminating Visplane Overflows was the best thing ever done to the Doom exe.

[myk]

Scuba Steve said:
Eliminating Visplane Overflows was the best thing ever done to the Doom exe.

Supposing that we're talking about the post-id era, I consider "public" multi-player and porting to other platforms much more important.

[that_guy]

Espi,
Great job; have not enjoyed this much playing a level set in a long time. It's a little tedious at points with the plethora of dead ends but overall I rate it as one of the best sets I've played because of the architecture, detail, excellent monster placement and the near-perfect ammo-health availability. I'm amazed that it is vannila doom2 compatible; please carry on ...

[Fletcher`]

Scuba Steve said:

Quite the opposite. Vanilla sucks usually, and I was impressed to see a mapset that was vanilla compatible but looked as impressive as anything in more advanced source ports.

How did you ever get into Doom at all.

I find that being able to create a very fun and extremly detailed map within small limitations proves that you can do a lot with a little, and helps open up new ways of doing and seeing things.

But no less. Who cares if it was designed for Vanilla doom. Its not like you HAVE to play it that way. I played it in zdoom and had a lot of fun.

But its all opinion. And my opinion is that this is a very fun map regardless of medium, and I hope to see much more from Espi. ^_^

[scwiba]

Just finished the last map now. The whole thing was great, though the end was a bit anticlimactic. You have an amazing talent for detail and level design.

[Dodge_Demon]

Simply beautiful.

BTW Espi, I'm looking for someone to do some maps for me, cuz i severely suck at it. So if you're interested, e-mail me or something, you make some high-quality stuff.

[Scuba Steve]

ravage said:

How did you ever get into Doom at all.

I got into Doom for creative reasons. I had ideas I wanted to try and it was the most powerful tool at the time. The more limits removed for me the better. Without having to be taught 3D modeling and Worldcraft or whatever, Doom is the easiest method for me to be creative making "games". VPO, seg limits (Dmapedit had this), sprites in wad... all of these held me back early on making mods, and as they were slowly removed I, as well as many mappers, had freedom to do more. It's never been about "What can I do in the Doom Engine" for me, it's "What can I do", and with ZDoom I can do almost anything.

I've already stated it, but Espi's map is great regardless.

[LexiMax]

I really liked this mapset.

And to jump in on the debate, Visplane Overflow's limitations forces mappers to work around it and do more with less. When it's removed, the mappers who tended to work around it still produce great work, but when you have new mappers jump in with no limitations they make absolutely ridiculous looking maps with millinos of linedefs, and it's similar to walking around in a palace, awesome looking, but disgustingly extravagant and excessive after you've been in your tenth.

[kristus]

I used to work around the VPO's. I hated it. When it was gone I started to make "absolutely ridiculous looking maps with millinos of linedefs, and it's similar to walking around in a palace, awesome looking, but disgustingly extravagant and excessive after you've been in your tenth."

[Afterglow]

Thanks to removing the visplane overflows, I can now do shit like this and this. Thanks for feeding my sickness, fuckers. Come to think of it, I have to align the textures for the brick along the floor light to align with the flat. *backs away into Doom Builder again*

[jetflock]

oh yeah afterglow? i did this: http://www.itu.int/ITU-D/ict/cs/photos/thailand/Thai%20Architecture.JPG

[SSWolfenSie]

Amazing.

[Espi]

Oh dear.

Anyways, I really didn't have a choice but to make it vanilla compatible when I started it, since that's all that WadEd could do. Not to mention it didn't take much to make a big enough map for it to refuse to load it.

After I picked up Doom Builder and started adding all the detail I wanted, some people did tell me to use a port instead, but I still stuck with vanilla for some reason. =P

And thanks for the comments everyone. =D I wasn't really expecting much attention.

[Csonicgo]

Graf Zahl said:

flame flame flame

do the zdoom.org whores TRY to start flamewars?

[TwinBeast]

Tried to play it with Doomsday... The first two maps ran just fine. The third one started to cause me segmentation violations every second time I load a game and once in a while just random... aww.. It was fun to play. I think I'll play it sometime later with some other port.

[kristus]

Csonicgo said:

do the zdoom.org whores TRY to start flamewars?

Err, I didn't see Graf flaming anyone.
Speaking of what Graf said though, I'd like to add this little comment.

[myk]

I honestly don't think Graf Zahl was flaming, but I also really wonder what that ugly white block has to do with VPOs or the level of "detail" in DOOM maps. What, that any game has "gameplay"?

Jimi said:
Tried to play it with Doomsday... The first two maps ran just fine. The third one started to cause me segmentation violations every second time I load a game and once in a while just random... aww..

The TXT said it wasn't made for hardware enhanced graphics engines; Risen3D might do a better job, though.

[Afterglow]

jetflock said:

oh yeah afterglow? i did this: http://www.itu.int/ITU-D/ict/cs/photos/thailand/Thai%20Architecture.JPG

That would look horrible in the Doom engine.

[Scuba Steve]

kristus said:

Gameplay

oh my god, Action!

[Bastet Furry]

Yiha! This mapset rocks! ^.^
Great detail, looks great on 1280x1024. (I just cant be bothered to try it in old vanilia ;) )

[Manc]

AlexMax said:

I really liked this mapset.

And to jump in on the debate, Visplane Overflow's limitations forces mappers to work around it and do more with less. When it's removed, the mappers who tended to work around it still produce great work, but when you have new mappers jump in with no limitations they make absolutely ridiculous looking maps with millinos of linedefs, and it's similar to walking around in a palace, awesome looking, but disgustingly extravagant and excessive after you've been in your tenth.

One can make a ridiculous map with limits as well, just on a different scale.

[DooMknight]

Wow, very nice wad. I like some effects you use to create fake 3D objects and some textures. Good work!