Automap--Use it or No?

[oRaptoRo]

Do any of you ever use your automap ingame? The only times it's been useful for me is when I'm designing my own maps and testing shit ingame. Otherwise, it's a worthless attachment to the tab key.

Opinions?

[Katgut]

Do any of you ever use your automap ingame? The only times it's been useful for me is when I'm designing my own maps and testing shit ingame. Otherwise, it's a worthless attachment to the tab key.

Opinions?

WE LIKE AUTOMAP ASTEROIDS

[læmænt]

Automap is cool, I really hate that they took it out of modern FPS's (and don't say that it's impossible to make a map of a completely 3d level - there're a lot of ways you can do it)

[Naked Snake]

Ok...maybe not...

[kristus]

Yeah I miss the automap in most newer games.

an I use it exstensively when I play Doom.

[Lüt]

I always use automap, even if I know the level by heart. I can't leave a level without every single line drawn on the automap. And when people make lines in their maps "not on map" IT PISSES THE FUCK OUT OF ME!!!@13 THERE'S NO FUCKING REASON TO HIDE LINES FROM THE MAP!!@(!$) ARRGH#)@@)#

[Test-0]

I agree with Lüt. I hate it when someone makes a part of the map like that. Like one time, someone made a maze, and then set all the lines so that they didn't show on the map. >_<

I liked how System shock 2 handled the map. It was good to have an actual map so I don't get lost. Not many other games with maps any more. :(

[Zeratul 982]

And when people make lines in their maps "not on map" IT PISSES THE FUCK OUT OF ME!!!@13 THERE'S NO FUCKING REASON TO HIDE LINES FROM THE MAP!!@(!$) ARRGH#)@@)#

Maybe there is. Hiding secret areas and traps so they don't stick out like sore thumbs.

Oh, hello there yellow line...

"A secret has been revealed"

[Lüt]

Oh, hello there yellow line...

Mark it "secret".

[Zaldron]

Automap is cool, I really hate that they took it out of modern FPS's (and don't say that it's impossible to make a map of a completely 3d level - there're a lot of ways you can do it)

IT'S NOT POSSIBLE DAMNIT

And it's not useful anymore.

[Gherkin]

IT'S NOT POSSIBLE DAMNIT

And it's not useful anymore.

It is possible, not all of the map at once for a good view tho. But I agree that its not usefull anymore. Games like Quake go so fast and you have to concentrate every single millisecond to survive, you dont have time to get a map and see if theres a door you forgot. Also, the maps arent really mazes like Doom, they are more like an arena where you fight.

[kristus]

Gherkin: I think you're confusing Quake with Doom.

[danarchist]

Automap is cool, I really hate that they took it out of modern FPS's (and don't say that it's impossible to make a map of a completely 3d level - there're a lot of ways you can do it)

IT'S NOT POSSIBLE DAMNIT

And it's not useful anymore.

<cough>Descent<cough>

[kristus]

Descent isn't a good example.. They kinda failed with their automap.. They madfe it 100% completely stupidly navigated.. But I would like to see 3d automaps in FPS:es in the future..

[Submerge]

Remember Thief's "automap"? I thought that was cool. Some of it was really vague, forcing you to figure stuff out for yourself.

[Zaldron]

"Automap" means no extra work is needed to render the map. Thief maps where hand drawn copies, but that's just a "map".

No, there's no good ways to do Automaps in full 3d games. My english skills are way too primitive to make a list of problems, so I'll just say this : If you have a valid idea, please tell me so I can sell the idea to Carmack and get rich.

[Enjay]

Remember Thief's "automap"? I thought that was cool. Some of it was really vague, forcing you to figure stuff out for yourself.

The only thing that really bugged me about the maps (ie NOT automaps) in thief that was Garrett, the experienced shadow of the night never fricken orientated his maps before he looked at them. It always took me ages just to work out which way I was facing relative to the map. Basic navigation/orienteering stuff.

Come on Garrett, turn the map round in Thief III (apparently being worked on by a new company that have a lot of the ex-looking glass people - but that news is a bit old, and could be wrong by now).

[dr_st]

<cough>Descent<cough>

Tha's right. Descent engine was the first true completely 3D engine, and they had a map. Of course it wasn't as easy to read as DOOM or Build engine flat maps. They did have lots of options, so you could make only small portions visible if you wanted and rotate it the way you like. Still it was a bitch, but I think it's better than nothing. I mean, it might help sometimes, and on the other hand, no one forces you to use it.

And I just remembered than when I just started playing DOOM, I didn't know there was an automap, and beat several of the levels without it. It does help in DOOM, especially if you find the CAM and it shows you the areas where you haven't been yet in gray.

[Zaldron]

Descent's mighty engine was just an acummulation of deformed boxes. That's easy to automap, but what about every single FPS in existence right now?

Remember, when a BSP tree is compiled, the old data about brushes is gone, now it's just an awful mess of triangles that make no sense. Turn on the wireframe mode in any Quake or Unreal engined game.

Now, that's all the stuff you have to build an automap. Cheers.

Oh, and yes, Thief III is being developed by Ion Storm Austin, the same guys that made Deus Ex.

[Kid Airbag]

I always use automap, even if I know the level by heart. I can't leave a level without every single line drawn on the automap. And when people make lines in their maps "not on map" IT PISSES THE FUCK OUT OF ME!!!@13 THERE'S NO FUCKING REASON TO HIDE LINES FROM THE MAP!!@(!$) ARRGH#)@@)#

To quote Crendowing...ditt-fucking-o.

[DooMBoy]

Well, to answer your question, no, I don't use the automap, hardly, at all, ever.

[Liam]

I always use automap, even if I know the level by heart. I can't leave a level without every single line drawn on the automap. And when people make lines in their maps "not on map" IT PISSES THE FUCK OUT OF ME!!!@13 THERE'S NO FUCKING REASON TO HIDE LINES FROM THE MAP!!@(!$) ARRGH#)@@)#

Want a copy of my new wad, Lüt? It's called "missingmap.wad". Enjoy O_O

[dr_st]

Descent's mighty engine was just an acummulation of deformed boxes. That's easy to automap, but what about every single FPS in existence right now?

Remember, when a BSP tree is compiled, the old data about brushes is gone, now it's just an awful mess of triangles that make no sense. Turn on the wireframe mode in any Quake or Unreal engined game.

Now, that's all the stuff you have to build an automap. Cheers.

Oh, and yes, Thief III is being developed by Ion Storm Austin, the same guys that made Deus Ex.

So programmers should build 3D engines in a way that makes ingame automapping possible. Stupid lazy *&W@%s. Descent engine was cool.

[Zaldron]

Descent engine was cool.

Say that again 3 times and you'll summon Beetlejuice! :P

[deadnail]

It is possible, not all of the map at once for a good view tho. But I agree that its not usefull anymore. Games like Quake go so fast and you have to concentrate every single millisecond to survive, you dont have time to get a map and see if theres a door you forgot. Also, the maps arent really mazes like Doom, they are more like an arena where you fight.

Are you fucking kidding me? Have we played the same Dooms and Quakes? Quake is in slow motion by comparison... there's only 1/4th as many enemies and they go down easy as hell, what in the name of Buddha is keeping you from exploring?

[Zaldron]

Oh well, but with true 3D there's no need to make childish mazes with no point at all. It's quite hard to get lost in real life, no matter if it's a mansion or a bunker.

I don't know...I used it a lot in the old days, but now I'm like used to navigating through levels. It's irrelevant now.

[skadoomer]

lets take wo exmples here: Wolfenstine 3d and Half-life. Now, Half-life is very very hard to get lost in...why? Lots of detail that makes rooms more diverse from one another. In wolfenstine 3d, all the rooms looked exactly the smae in most aspects, simple detail and lost of rooms. Its easier to get lost in wolfenstine than in Half-life, and evern if there was an automap in newer games, what purpose would it serve? I hate to say it but most fps now a days don't have the player flip a switch and spend half an hour trying to figure out what door opened unlike some of the earily doom maps I played. Automap my firends is dead, sonar maps however, would be useful....

[Zaldron]

Automap is dead. Now "maps" are ALWAYS welcome. Specially when they provide more information than just lines.

Take a look at Thief's maps, or those in Rainbow Six, or even the animated ones in Mechwarrior. How could someone not miss them?

[Sephiroth]

yes that is the one thing that bugs the hell out of me in wolf3d, i get lost so damn easy because it all looks the same. i never really got lost in half-life. but even when i beat wolf3d years ago and come back i still get lost. automap is not needed in new games because of great details and the use of common sence to go through a level. however wolf3d shuold have had a automap. besides automap is too hard to make when it is not something commonly used anymore

[nxn]

umm... that's exactly what skadoomer said....