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fiend-o-hell

Disabling cheats?

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That wouldn't work in ZDoom which disables cheat changes with Dehacked. There is intentionally no way to disable cheats in single player WADSs so that people like you can't screw around with other people's desire to cheat anyway.

Other ports with a console wouldn't be affected much either. All you'd do is annoy your customers.

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Changing the cheats via dehacked is just a way to irritate people really. And it is pretty easy to find out the new cheats by looking at the deh in a text editor, and to disable them by editing it.

There have been some wads that include graphical or other changes triggered by using cheat codes in an attempt to punish the player for using them. Again, this is just likely to cause annoyance and generally isn't too hard to circumvent, assuming the player hasn't got so fed up by that point that they're still playing the wad at all.

Your best bet is to trust people to be responsible. If people want to use cheats in a way that ruins the experience, then it's their loss.

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Grazza said:

Your best bet is to trust people to be responsible. If people want to use cheats in a way that ruins the experience, then it's their loss.

Well spoken!

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I disabled cheats by changing them into different codes with a Dehacked patch. Will do the same for upcoming releases, by using Eternity's options.

I'd leave the IDBHOLD options and the level/music change cheats alone. I trust the player not to abuse those, and in case they accidently ruin their session (like, opting to save a game instead of reloading it) it will get them back to their feet without frustration.

But cheats like ID(K)FA and IDDQD are just too easy to abuse. Same for noclipping.

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Rest assured that anyone who still wants to cheat already knows how to circumvent it. Grazza is absolutely correct when he says that the only effect it has is to irritate people.

I regularly use IDDQD/IDCLIP to take a quick look at maps before playing them for real so if you do that you have at least one very annoyed customer. Having to hack WADs to get rid of such nonsense is not the way to please me.

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People play for fun, if they use cheats is because they find more fun cheating than playing the map in normal mode. Most times that this happens is because the map is boring, annoying, has an ultra hard (and boring) puzzle, or the map itself it's harder than what the player find fun or can beat. If your wad it's good enough nobody will cheat. Only n00bs cheat even when the wad it's perfect.

Personaly I wouldn't disable cheats as that's very annoying, little cheats like "iddqd-iddqd" (to recover health), idbehold* or idchoppers (if you're out of ammo) come in handy in when you're not that inspired to play serious, and prefer a "semi serious" mode.
It's all about fun, and cheats are a tool some times to keep the fun there, and as a tool it's only used when and if it's needed.

If you still think that disable cheats is a good idea play Hacx with the original exe.

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Also (as mentioned) most ports offer far better ways to cheat than the original cheat codes.

Using Graf's example - (in Doomsday) rather than using the noclip cheat I instead turn myself into a new camera (simple console command) and fly around the level to check things out. This way monsters arn't alerted, I can use the 3Dthruster code (handles like flying in Quake) and clipping is automatically disabled anyway.

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Vegeta said:

If you still think that disable cheats is a good idea play Hacx with the original exe.

They're not disabled - just changed to ones you can view by looking in (one of) the deh file(s) (assuming you have one of the packages that include it/them) or by opening the exe up with dehacked.

The cheat I use most often when playing normally (i.e. not testing, preparing to record, or reviewing) is idclip/idspispopd. This is when a map has allowed me to get stuck in an area from which there is no escape (either by design, careless mapping, or because I've unwisely used a trick of some sort).

The best reason for an exe not to disable the ability to change the codes via dehacked, is if people want to use a custom patch to make them shorter, or to move them away from their control keys (e.g. with a WASD layout, the D in the standard cheats codes means you strafe right, which can be annoying). However, the fact that I haven't bothered to make such a patch in 12 years of Dooming suggests that I'm not unduly bothered about this. :)

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Leave the cheats alone. If I want to "spoil" my experience of your WAD, why not let me? I harm no-one by doing so but you preventing me might just piss me off and prevent me playing your WAD. I'll quite often cheat on a level the first time I play it, if something goes horribly wrong. However, if the WAD is fun, I'm far more likely to come back and try to play it honestly. With cheating disabled that becomes very unlikely and the recycle bin becomes an almost-certainty.

Long before Zdoom disabled this annoying feature of DEHACKED, one of the first things I used to do with a WAD was check the DEH patch and search for a cheats section. If I found it, I'd remove it as a matter of routine.

Mordeth said:

But cheats like ID(K)FA and IDDQD are just too easy to abuse. Same for noclipping.


But why is that a problem for you? Why shouldn't I "abuse" them on my machine if I want? Saving is just a clumsy god mode anyway, so why not leave me the real thing? I'm far more likely to play, and replay a mod with cheats than without.

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Cheats are there for a reason, dont remove them/change them. Let the person play the wad with as many aids as they please, its not hurting you in any way. Plus its annoying as hell to find bugs if cheats are disabled.

@Enjay: Saving, when it isnt used every 60 seconds or the like, is different and you know it.

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HobbsTiger1 said:
@Enjay: Saving, when it isnt used every 60 seconds or the like, is different and you know it.

It's not the amount of times you use it but whether you reload the game; if you use a save to interrupt the game and continue later it's unlike a cheat, but otherwise it's pretty much granting you extra lives or opportunities.

I wouldn't disable cheats because, like people said, it's impossible to control them. Trying to struggle with cheaters is pointless; if they aren't your target audience, ignore them. They don't play the wad correctly in your opinion, so why would you care what they do?

Plus you can hardly define "cheating" nowadays; I can make a level for Doom2 and some people will play it with jumping or with some mod that gives the player new weapons. Either changes the experience into something that was not intended while designed, and might reduce the challenge considerably, like cheats or cowardly saving certainly would.

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You're just causing yourself unnecessary stress if you work so hard to force people to play your map a certain way. What difference will it make if someone decides to use idclip for fun?

For cases like maps that arent desidned for jumping, you can simply make a note in the text file stating that the map is designed without such a feature in mind, or that it's made for doom2.exe, etc. It's already understood that maps arent normally designed to be played with god mode or some such thing. Although I wondeer if one could design something with such an intention and have it be fun...

Besides, that line of thought can end up being detrimental for gameplay. Doom's gameplay flexibility is one of the things that makes it rock.

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Grazza said:

They're not disabled

I know, the exe that Hacx uses it's just a modified by dehacked vanilla DOOM 2 exe. But if you're lazy enough to enter dehacked or to find them at the internet, it's almost the same.
--
Disabling cheats as you can read will only reduce the number of players that may try your wad.

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An amendment to my point about saving: When used as stop point to continue later there is nothing 'godmode' or 'extra life' about saving. Similarly, (the method I use), saving at the start of each level, has little 'extra life' to it, the only difference being if I die in a level I start with the weapons I had at the levels start instead of pistol starting.

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That's fine. However, being able to save before you open every door just in case you screw up whatever happens next, or every time you achieve the slightest thing is like a weak god mode. You may not use it like that, but plenty of people do. So that hacky god mode is available to them, why not the real thing if they want it? That's all I'm saying.

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Wow, nice feed back. Lol, I didn’t mean for it to turn into a debate. I completely agree with Grazza, that’s to say, cheating gets you out of some tough situation and for those of who are to lazy, walk you through the level. I just feel the inclusion of these cheats (which are REALLY easy to abuse) in my current wad project would ruin the game play severely. It will incorporate a few elements found in RPG’s (massive world with many interconnected maps), weapons, treasures…so on and so forth. Using IDDQD or IDKFA would really ruin the experience on so many different levels. I think by excluding these simple cheats, it will help discourage cheating, not prevent it.

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Enjay said:

That's fine. However, being able to save before you open every door just in case you screw up whatever happens next, or every time you achieve the slightest thing is like a weak god mode. You may not use it like that, but plenty of people do. So that hacky god mode is available to them, why not the real thing if they want it? That's all I'm saying.


What you just described is the "DONT FUCK UP" method :P. And, as I said in my first post, I dont disagree on not giving players the real thing.

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HobbsTiger1 said:

What you just described is the "DONT FUCK UP" method :P.


Heh, I have a friend who uses that method. However, every now and again he does fuck up - when he presses quicksave when he meant to hit quickload. :D

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There's a difference about disabling all cheats, versus disabling some of them.

Next controversy: speedrunners getting pissed off by certain people introducing random events in their levels :)

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Mordeth said:

There's a difference about disabling all cheats, versus disabling some of them.

Next controversy: speedrunners getting pissed off by certain people introducing random events in their levels :)



Lol that would suck, i can just imagine that < running though the last part and is Insta killed from a pillar coming down over the enterance of the exit> =x

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Doom'd Marine said:
Lol that would suck, i can just imagine that < running though the last part and is Insta killed from a pillar coming down over the enterance of the exit> =x


... With a text message appearing "Congrats! You almost completed this level under 23 seconds!" :P

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Mordeth said:

... With a text message appearing "Congrats! You almost completed this level under 23 seconds!" :P


I would blow though a level just to see that :P
r
Edit: Is it a dumb move to make maps non speedrunner capatible ( as in, either lots of jumping is needed; you need to do a puzzle for the end; etc. )

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Generally, the things that would make a map not demo-friendly are the same things that would make it a poor map overall (e.g. lots of waiting around while nothing is happening, very poor ammo/health balance {though this isn't a problem in all categories}, *purely* luck-based instant-death traps, etc.). A puzzle isn't a big deal for a demo recorder - you just make sure you have memorized the solution before you start the recording session. And fancy jumps just make for a flashier demo - indeed, a lot of demos are based around trick jumps unintended by the map's author.

Though there are certain things that are annoying for the recorder. Stuff that "snags" the player makes for an ugly-looking demo, and forcing the player to attempt a trick with a low chance of success at the end of a long demo is a way to discourage anyone from recording on your map too. Or if you just hate the idea of someone recording on your map, include a screwed-up REJECT lump.

BTW, if you want to muck people about who want to use god mode, you can put, say, God Mode Health = -9999 in the dehacked patch. It's a very silly thing to do though.

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Grazza said:

Generally, the things that would make a map not demo-friendly are the same things that would make it a poor map overall (e.g. lots of waiting around while nothing is happening, very poor ammo/health balance {though this isn't a problem in all categories}, *purely* luck-based instant-death traps, etc.). A puzzle isn't a big deal for a demo recorder - you just make sure you have memorized the solution before you start the recording session. And fancy jumps just make for a flashier demo - indeed, a lot of demos are based around trick jumps unintended by the map's author.

Though there are certain things that are annoying for the recorder. Stuff that "snags" the player makes for an ugly-looking demo, and forcing the player to attempt a trick with a low chance of success at the end of a long demo is a way to discourage anyone from recording on your map too. Or if you just hate the idea of someone recording on your map, include a screwed-up REJECT lump.

BTW, if you want to muck people about who want to use god mode, you can put, say, God Mode Health = -9999 in the dehacked patch. It's a very silly thing to do though.


No.. its not that i hate the idea, i would like just to mess up the recorder, just to see if they would find a way to be able ot record in that level =)

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