Classic Thief versus Deadly Shadows.

[ellmo]

Greetings to all you thieves, hammerites, pagans or town watch officers. The question for today is:
Do you like Thief series games?
The Question for today a few minutes later is:
Do you prefer classic (1&2) Thieves to Deadly Shadows?

So I had Deadly Shadows installed a few days ago, and I played quite through it already. I must say that I was afraid about the atmosphere. Especially about the sounds and voices.
Even if "Dark Engine" sucks definitely for some (not me, I think it's a very stable and quick engine that can deliver nice lightning effects and high poly models -if you add them), both Thief and System Shock 2 had astonishing sound / music score.
Seeing that Thief3 was done by IonStorm and not TTLG, I thought that I would be really disappointed; but I bought the game anyway.

Hearing Garret's voice again, and all other recognizable voices in the latest establishments of one of my favourite series really made my day... and he classic "smart guard vs. dumb guard" is back again with all it's glory!

The game really plays like Thief; as I was afraid it won't. There are some minor differences, but for a maniac like me - they can be put aside. What is most important, Deadly Shadows give you more freedom, allowing to traverse the city; contact fences and shopkeepers you like; listen to latest gossips, and a handful of funny conversations.

Now here comes the bad thing - teh engine is suckz0rs; whoever has written it for DeusEx2, should be executed on stand. I mean it! Problems with climbing ladders in a game developed in 2004 are a sign of absolute retardeness and complete lack of betatesting.

But still: I'm a Thief maniac... maybe even a MANIAC. The game has a good story, nice graphics, doesn't have performance issues (but that's more likely thanks to map designers), and has that something I've been always looking for. That something more modern games don't have. Don't know how to call it, but it's the thing that keeps you inside the game, even if the engine sucks badly and you cannot knock down a man just beacuse he's sitting on a chair.

Now please, share your thoughts.
(I have a funny feeling Enjay may respond to that).

[Enjay]

ellmo said:

I have a funny feeling Enjay may respond to that.

I have a funny feeling you're right. :)

Thief:DS is a good game. Let me say that from the outset. At times it had the same affect on me as the first 2 - that of sitting at my computer actually holding my breath, scared to touch any of my computer controls, scared even to move whilst my on-screen counterpart sat crouched in a corner trying to avoid detection as some heavily breathing guard moved closer and closer. The engine looked very good at times and it was nice to finally interact with characters that didn't look as if they'd been carved from a piece of waste wood using a blunt pen knife. The story for the game was very good IMO. The thief stories have always been good and this was no exception. It was probably even more involved and more complete than the other two and rounded the trilogy off very well. It also has one of the most atmospheric levels in a game ever IMO: The Cradle. That level was quite amazing and I was lucky enough to be able to recreate a great deal of it for a live role-playing event when a friend and I got the use of a 100 year-old disused Victorian boarding school for Catholic boys that has lain empty for 20 years for a night (long story). Another favourite level of mine was the Widow's mansion. That was an incredibly well done level. Strange and eerie, and listening to the npcs conversations as the social backbiting played out in front of you was as good as any soap opera. And the stone golem statue things "crush and kill and crush and kill and..." V scary. And being hunted down by the keepers... creepy.

However, it also has some very annoying flaws both in terms of gameplay/design and the engine. Also, there were things that wouldn't bother some people but which I found really disappointing.

First, I'll deal with the engine because that's an easy one: It sucks. The first incarnation of it had a major bug: No mater what difficulty setting you were playing on, when you loaded a save game it would revert to normal difficulty. They released a patch (the only fix for a very buggy engine AFAIK) but the X-Box version couldn't be patched and I think the people who'd bought that were just left high and dry. Other than that, there are numerous little bugs. No big crashy ones from what I remember, but you could easily get stuck in walls, end up floating over the ground, have difficulty with ladders etc etc. Also, related to it being for the X-box, I believe, the levels had far too many load zones. They should have consolidated the levels into larger ones wherever possible for the PC. It also had quite a bit of "dumbing down". People say this is to cater for the X-box audience. Frankly I don't know. A lot of people also complained about things like the interface (pickable items glowing too much) and so on. I personally had no real problems with it. Apparently the engine couldn't do an old favourite of mine: rope arrows. So, we ended up with sticky climbing gloves. However, the places that these could be used were so limited as to make them pointless: except on the one place where the puzzle was deliberately put in to make you need them. Also, Garrett, who snuck into the very first house you burgled in Thief 1 by swimming through the sewer seems to have forgotten how to swim. Apparently the engine couldn't do this either, so falling in water is instant death. It was also nearly impossible to blackjack people sitting in a chair: the very people it should have been easiest to get.

A lot of people didn't like the fact that there was a 3rd person view. I didn't mind, and quite liked it at times. A lot of people didn't like the purchasing system for equipment. I did. I hated the older system of stripping items out of your inventory between missions. What was the point in me finding stuff in the levels and economising on its use if I was going to loose it anyway? A lot of people didn't like the "body awareness" where the player model was used for the reference for your physics - so how you stood and where you looked was directly related to what the model was doing and vice versa. Once I got used to it, I was fine with it. Until I got used to it, it felt very clumsy. A lot of people didn't like the lock picking method. It was frustrating at times, but I quite liked it.

So, the game. Well, it had a much pimped "living city" where you got to wander around with various npcs just going about their lives. The city was basically the hub that you returned to time and time again to access different missions or to buy stuff or fence your ill gotten gains. However, it didn't really work like that. Very quickly, you became far from anonymous and had to sneak around the city avoiding people. You couldn't just blend with the crowd and every npc became a potential alarm raiser. That's fine, but the city was so samey and had so many load zones that simply getting from A to B could take ages - especially when you kept taking the wrong route. I quickly found it tedious and not fun at all. The point was, I guess, to make you learn the city because a couple of crucial missions actually take place in the city hub and knowing your way around certainly helps then. However, I'm not sure it was worth the literally hours of getting lost that led up to it. Also, the city population respawned too quickly and too close, thereby absolutely breaking any illusion that it was a real living city. eg, you could knock a guard out, carry his body to a nearby hiding place only to turn round and see the respawned version of the guy at your feet already back on patrol muttering the same things and following the same route as if nothing had happened.

Also, related to the above, I was disappointed that there was very little rooftop action. Garrett makes quite a deal about "The thieves highway" across the rooftops in Thief2. It's a quick, easy, undetectable way of getting from A to B if you're a nimble thief. So why, in the game that actually has a living city did Garrett hardly ever take to the rooftops? An engine thing again?

However, for me, the biggest let down was a style choice. Don't get me wrong, the place looked great, but it was a much tamer, less characteristic vision than before. The first 2 games were hugely identifyable as the Thief world - and no other. The term "steam-punk" I believe covers this look. A curious mix of victoriana and medieval buildings and technology with strange magics and glowing lights thrown in. There was no other scenario like it. Victorian red-brick buildings sat alongside medieval sailing ships, Elizabethan timber framed houses and pagan rituals. Strange metal and electrical machines ticked and whirred on every street corner adding to the collage of sights, sounds and colour. In Thief:DS so much of this was toned down. There were only a few places where the odd machinery was really evident - I don't think it was ever blatantly on show. The street lamps were no longer strange magical green light fountains but traditional lamps. In most places, the Victorian style of buildings simply weren't there. It was all a much more typical medieval fantasy looking place. Only the inside of the clock tower and certain aspects of the cradle really felt like they belonged in the Thief world that I had grown to love from the first 2 games. Fine in itself, but it really isn't Thief as far as I'm concerned.

Other gripes?

The sprawling multi load-zoned city that was easy to get lost in and hard to learn. I know I've mentioned it, but it's worth mentioning twice.

Zombies: I've never liked the Zombies in Thief and the ship mission really wasn't to my taste. Other people liked it, so it is just a taste thing... I guess.

The museum level. This was a great level. Real genuine taffing around stealing stuff. Perfect! So why is it a gripe? The level was in the wrong place! It was almost the last mission in the game. By this time the plot was rolling along like an unstoppable express train, the entire city had been looking for you at some point, all sorts of wierd and supernatural things had happened, tragedy, betrayal and deceit were everywhere, the entire city, if not the world, was about to come crashing down and you find yourself fannying around nicking stuff in a museum! Even if what you were stealing was pertinent to the plot, the feel of the level was wrong for that stage in the game.

And finally, the artwork for the intermission animations was very inconsistent. Garret seemed to go from about 50 years old to about 20 between different cutscenes and the styles were quite different. I also missed my animated mission briefings. A screen of text doesn't cut it in comparison.

So, all in all a good game. It's maybe even a great game. It's one that left a lasting impression on me, one that I enjoyed thoroughly and one of my favourite games. However, it did have some terrible flaws, mainly as a result of being pushed out of the door too quickly and from the change of management of the project and their priorities. A lot of what I loved about the original games, very disappointingly, wasn't carried forward into a newer generation engine so I didn't get to see it in all its smoothly rendered glory. But I still rate it as a high favourite.

If you're interested, it's worth tracking down some of the add-ons. There are some nice hi-res character skins and some interface tweaks too as well as other stuff.

[ellmo]

Enjay said:

It also has one of the most atmospheric levels in a game ever IMO: The Cradle.

"Oh no! You can't leave now, can you? the Cradle now remembers you".
Plus I really nearly pissed my pants while slowly walking towards the attic door the first time. I was expecting something to come thorugh it and chew me up, but nothing really happened - and that scared me the most.

First, I'll deal with the engine because that's an easy one: It sucks.

Ditto.

The first incarnation of it had a major bug: No mater what difficulty setting you were playing on, when you loaded a save game it would revert to normal difficulty.

I was lucky enough to start with v1.1, but how the hell is is possible they didn't find it out in betatesting?

(...)you could easily get stuck in walls, end up floating over the ground, have difficulty with ladders etc etc.

Well hanging in the air after an "incomplete" or interrupted jump is happening far too often.

the levels had far too many load zones. They should have consolidated the levels into larger ones wherever possible for the PC.

Though it didn't really hurt the performance (at east for me), but it was most disappointing for City maps; the guards couldn't follow you if you went, let's say, to the other side of the Stone Market, but they would be waiting for you to come out.

(...)people also complained about things like the interface (pickable items glowing too much) and so on. I personally had no real problems with it.

Me neither.

Apparently the engine couldn't do an old favourite of mine: rope arrows. So, we ended up with sticky climbing gloves. However, the places that these could be used were so limited as to make them pointless

I also alway liked the rope (vine) arrows; which made some secrets more "immersive", but on the other hand, a 120-150 pound guy wouldn't really be able to hang on a rope attached to an arrow :/ Gloves were far more realistic, and finally allowed you to climb the walls (and that ability is forgotten in 99,9% of games). Also, I personally think there were lot's of places to climb up. Even inside The City. If you had nowhere to run from a guard, and he was definitely coming your way - it was time to go up!

Also, Garrett, who snuck into the very first house you burgled in Thief 1 by swimming through the sewer seems to have forgotten how to swim.

Yeah, this major drawback really hurt me. No breath potions? ;_;

It was also nearly impossible to blackjack people sitting in a chair: the very people it should have been easiest to get.

nearly? So was it possible at all?

A lot of people didn't like the fact that there was a 3rd person view.

If they didn't like it, why did they use it?

I hated the older system of stripping items out of your inventory between missions. What was the point in me finding stuff in the levels and economising on its use if I was going to loose it anyway?

Quoted for truth.

A lot of people didn't like the "body awareness"

I think IonStorm has gone too much into realism. Body awarness is really fine if it comes to lightning. I didn't like the fact, that in classic Thief you could stand on a dark patch inside a blazing ring of light, and you wouldn't be noticed, in Deadly Shadows it's sometimes enough that your hand is visible. But while moving, your physical body forced you to pay more attention to where do your limbs go, than to where are you going.

I was disappointed that there was very little rooftop action. Garrett makes quite a deal about "The thieves highway" across the rooftops in Thief2.

Angelwatch mission owns. Hands down.

I also missed my animated mission briefings. A screen of text doesn't cut it in comparison.

Yes, I concur on that. By animated you mean those slow moving black&white drawings and sketches? Or the full colored ones with lots of quotes from Hammerites, Pagans and Keepers?

Dance we the Dance of wolves...

[Enjay]

ellmo said:

Plus I really nearly pissed my pants while slowly walking towards the attic door the first time.

Yes, the first time for a very long time that something in a game actually got me.

I was lucky enough to start with v1.1, but how the hell is is possible they didn't find it out in betatesting?

Apparently they rushed it out of the door and a lot of the things the beta testers reported didn't get fixed. Or so the beta testers have said. I guess they would though. BTW, there is a nice little program (I for get its name) that you can run whilst playing. It allows you to tweak all sorts of awareness settings - like how likely npcs are to react to noises, seeing you and even bumping in to you. Obviously it can be used to cheat, but it can also be used to ramp-up the difficulty too, if that's your thing.

the guards couldn't follow you if you went, let's say, to the other side of the Stone Market, but they would be waiting for you to come out.

Yeah, so much for living city. Whenever you left an area, it just went on hold. You could be away for hours and no-one had moved.

but on the other hand, a 120-150 pound guy wouldn't really be able to hang on a rope attached to an arrow :/ Gloves were far more realistic, and finally allowed you to climb the walls...

The arrows are magical, they could hold a truck if they wanted to. ;)Perhaps I was a bit harsh on the gloves. I think because I didn't find them as useful as I thought such items should be, and because I missed the arrows.

nearly? So was it possible at all?

Actually, I don't think so.

If they didn't like it, why did they use it?

You know what some people are like. They can't stand other people enjoying a game in a way that they themselves wouldn't like or don't approve of, so they bitch about it and try and make other people feel guilty for having their own fun.

Yes, I concur on that. By animated you mean those slow moving black&white drawings and sketches? Or the full colored ones with lots of quotes from Hammerites, Pagans and Keepers?

Both really. The full colour things were really cutscenes and DS certainly had them (though inconsistent as I mentioned) but the B&W slideshow animations were quite atmospheric too and gave you little snapshots of where you were supposed to go or what the owner of the house was supposed to look like etc. Helped give a bit of a feel that you'd cased the joint or paid for info or just done your homework.

[ellmo]

Enjay said:

The arrows are magical, they could hold a truck if they wanted to. ;)

I explain a lot to my brother exactly the same way:
-Jake have you seen that monster in Stome Market's custody?
-Yeah...
-What the hell was it? I don't like them beasts in games like that.
-But it's a magical world

the B&W slideshow animations were quite atmospheric too and gave you little snapshots of where you were supposed to go or what the owner of the house was supposed to look like etc. Helped give a bit of a feel that you'd cased the joint or paid for info or just done your homework.

Well they were the essence of classic Thief. I simply can't imagine enjoing the game without those.

[Zaldron]

Thief 3 was an abomination to an otherwise godlike franchise. I'm sorry, I know it's not a bad game, but they got so many things wrong that you would believe the developers could not possibly screw up, that calling Thief:DS a Thief game upsets me to no end.

You don't "revitalize" the franchise by replacing the concepts that were kept exactly the same moving from Thief to Thief II. That's simply raping it. This goes from the minuscule details like the presence of animated machinery in the main menu all the way up to gross issues like its art design, engine, level design, cinematics and gameplay. There was nothing to revitalize in these games, they were not dull by any means. Had there been a fifth incarnation, some variation should be introduced, but Ion Storm did in my opinion such a lousy job at that; there wasn't a single new feature I actually liked, not because its basic premise was flawed, not all the time, but its execution was piss-poor.

Argh, thinking about that game drives me nuts.

[AirRaid]

I agree with Zaldron. Thief 1 and 2 were awesome games and Deadly Shadows... It just wasn't the same.