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devoid

Sprite vs. Polygon

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Ok who do you think is the superior?

The polygon monster?

Or the sprite monster?

IMO:
First of all the sprite monster are the real deal, best looking, and most deadly.
Deadly? YEA DEADLY!
Ok imagine me as an imp, the sprite variant, then this sick cyberdemon comes towards me, and wanna blast me and suff.
But hes a polygon! So I just turn sideway and run sideways through him! You know like a crab, and since im 2d, im totally razorsharp. ZINK! Youre dead!

And thats why I allways avoid the trees in doom, they are sharp as hell on the edge!

The polygons advantage? well all the new kids that didnt grew up with doom, heretic, hexen, strife, shadow warrior, quiver and all that 2d glory, is too damn stupid to realize what real games are, instead they rate gameplay per polycount. They are bulky and dont stand a chance versus the 2d's.

Heh I was bored...

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Obviously 3d things are superior to flat sprites, but that doesn't mean sprites look bad. That's all I got to say on the case.

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It really depends. A good sprite is better than a bad model. I generally prefer Doom with sprites than models though. The JDoom models aren't necessarily bad, but they don't capture the feel of the game properly for me. For one thing, some of Doom's objects aren't meant to be viewed from more than one direction, and adding multiple angles to them sometimes makes things look weird due to them being placed with angles that assume they'll look the same from all directions. Also, the last time I checked some of the JDoom models, like the pink demon, seemed to be too big compared to the size of the sprites they replace.

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I say for now sprites are superior (when it comes to enemies, static objects are better with models) They look better IMO models are obviously models, but sprites can look pretty realistic and be pretty convincing since they are resized photos of real things. That's why DUKE3d's sprites looked cartoony, they were made by taking screens of cg models not actual figures. Until models get to the point where they look like almost exactly like the figures that were created for the doom sprites, they will be inferior.

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ROFL for christ's sake you people. I don't understand how anyone could even begin to defend Doom sprites in 2006.

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Models in general can ofcourse be more beautifull than sprites, but only when detailed and well textured. This is clearly shown in modern games. But I have not seen any (original) Doom monster modelled+textured after its sprite to consider it decent or good looking, let alone nicer than its sprite. Until someone does, Doom looks best with its sprites IMO.

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Linguica said:

ROFL for christ's sake you people. I don't understand how anyone could even begin to defend Doom sprites in 2006.


You have to start somewhere.

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I'm slowly getting there with the jDRP but quality takes time...


Extremely WIP Cacodemon from jDRP 1.1

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That caco there's looking good; for its green eye, it must have some Irish blood.

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My problem with the 3D monster models in Doom ports is less and less the basic look of the model (they are improving all the time) but the way they move. Something like a caco or lost soul is not so bad, but the animation for most walking monsters looks awful IMO. Far too stiff and, upright and wooden - but in a bad, not a zombie, way. I've no idea why, but I suspect it's a limit of the animation frames or something in Doom rather than lack of talent from the authors.

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Actually, the poor animation of the models in jDRP 1.01 is mainly due to the models themselves which are mostly inherited from Team SOG...

The pinky demon for example, only has approx 10 frames of animation in total.

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For me models are better than sprites only if are equal or over the Quake 3 models quality. Hexen sprites look better for me than Hexen II or even Heretic II models.

But for me it all depends the kind of game you are interested, I wouldn't like to play Mr. Do, Super Mario, Titus the Fox, with models even if they are better than the ones of DOOM 3, and while I wouldn't bother to play DOOM 3 with sprites (ahem), I of course prefer it with models (sadly I only played the original thing once).

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When considering sprites versus polygons, you have to consider what environment they'll be in. In Doom's "natural" environment, sprites fit well and polygons seem a bit out of place. If you revamp that environment, then the opposite tends to prove true.

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It's a matter of taste, of course, but I find replacing the original monsters and decorations with models for playing original/old levels less appealing than the possibilities someone like Sitters realises when he uses models in his maps. To me, he's not really making Doom maps; he's making something else with it's own environment that just happens to use the Doom engine. They are built from the "ground-up" with models in mind and models, therefore, look right and good.

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Linguica said:

ROFL for christ's sake you people. I don't understand how anyone could even begin to defend Doom sprites in 2006.

Word.

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Lizardcommando said:

I wonder what the current jDoom models would look like if they were cel-shaded.

like crap

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gargoylol said:

every imp model i see always sucks.

Is that because they lack visible genitalia?

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deathz0r said:

VOXELS VOXELS VOXELS VOXELS etc

Damn you, I was going to say that.

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Enjay said:

My problem with the 3D monster models in Doom ports is less and less the basic look of the model (they are improving all the time) but the way they move. Something like a caco or lost soul is not so bad, but the animation for most walking monsters looks awful IMO. Far too stiff and, upright and wooden - but in a bad, not a zombie, way. I've no idea why, but I suspect it's a limit of the animation frames or something in Doom rather than lack of talent from the authors.

Even sprite monsters move horribly in jdoom by default. I had to turn off some option to make them normal.

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Even sprite monsters move horribly in jdoom by default. I had to turn off some option to make them normal.

Which option?

How do you mean "move horribly"?

EDIT: Do you mean "Smooth actor movement" in the Doomsday control panel?

If so, I know what you're referring to. The issue is a result of the original sprite walking animations being timed very poorly in DOOM (Hexen doesn't exhibit the same) in that nearly all the monsters move about 1.3 times faster than the animations would suggest they do. The problem is due to the DOOM engine's timing mechanism for states and frames being hard-wired together and/or ID wanting to keep the number of sprite frames down for whatever reasons.

When you enable actor movement smoothing the issue becomes obvious but using the original, non-smoothed movement the jerkyness masks the bad animation timing.

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Ok imagine me as an imp, the sprite variant, then this sick cyberdemon comes towards me, and wanna blast me and suff.
But hes a polygon! So I just turn sideway and run sideways through him! You know like a crab, and since im 2d, im totally razorsharp. ZINK! Youre dead!


Muahaha

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Although it's fun playing with models in jDoom, it's mostly a novelty. The professionalism exhibited in the sprites does not match the professionalism of the models. In that respect, the sprites look better. The models also lack realistic lighting, adding to their awkwardness. The animation, as mentioned before, is also a bit dodgy. However, if ALL the models in Jdoom were on the level of the cacodemon pictured in Danj's post, and they were animated sufficiently, I would definitely prefer them to the sprites.

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GoatLord said:

However, if ALL the models in Jdoom were on the level of the cacodemon pictured in Danj's post, and they were animated sufficiently, I would definitely prefer them to the sprites.


Indeed, I'm looking forward to seeing how that model will appear when it gets to a point of being usable in game.

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DaniJ said:

Do you mean "Smooth actor movement" in the Doomsday control panel?

Yeah, that's the one. It made the monsters move like they had sticks up their asses.

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