Compet-n Discussion

[VinceDSS]

why don't all these player go and play some compet-n ? it's dying now, with only one player going ...

[Kristian Ronge]

VinceDSS said:
why don't all these player go and play some compet-n ? it's dying now, with only one player going ...

I have some things I guess I could upload; nothing fancy, but it's something at least. As Gusta said, a COMPET-N update might help stimulate some activity as well... *cough*

Oh, and that Peo thing you promised me... have you dug it up yet? ;-)

[VinceDSS]

Gusta said:

Vince: maybe all of these players has WinXP and arent able to run vanilla doom2.exe. And compet-n would live if it would be normally updated as it used to be ... Dunno if Adam lost interest or something but his inactivity made rather losing interest about it.:(

Look at Stx-Vile, he didnt stop at Win2K/XP, and made great doom2.exe demos. And radeg did play this way also.

I am not playing solo anymore, I would play doom2.exe coop if only I could find players (I still have 3 win98 comps here:). Method were are you ?

AdamW may take C-N over, if he manages to convince AdamH :)

[xit-vono]

VinceDSS said:

Look at Stx-Vile, he didnt stop at Win2K/XP, and made great doom2.exe demos. And radeg did play this way also.

I am not playing solo anymore, I would play doom2.exe coop if only I could find players (I still have 3 win98 comps here:). Method were are you ?

AdamW may take C-N over, if he manages to convince AdamH :)

Did adamW tell you he wanted to run C-N? This is news to me.

[Kristian Ronge]

Adam W expressed an interest in maintaining COMPET-N as early as late 2004 (source), and has done so again several times since.

[Schneelocke]

Kristian Ronge said:

Adam W expressed an interest in maintaining COMPET-N as early as late 2004 (source), and has done so again several times since.

There are others who have offered AdamH to help out, too (not take over, just help out)... but without getting any reply whatsoever. >_>

[xit-vono]

Well it seems if Adam_H is not responding, then we should try to get things going ourselves. I wonder if speeddemosarchive would be willing to host compet-n.

[Opulent]

xit-vono said:

Well it seems if Adam_H is not responding, then we should try to get things going ourselves. I wonder if speeddemosarchive would be willing to host compet-n.

Not a bad idea, but the SDA doesn't even host their own stuff.

besides, it is Bahdko who hosts it, the web hits are nothing(outside of finding a server that allows the database scripting to run).

I'd like to hear what Adam W. has to say.

[VinceDSS]

I got AdamW on IRC, he's no time nor interest anymore...

WinXP/2K is definitly not an obstacle to record EXE demos, stx-Vile 30nm is the prefect example, Radeg did some demos also. They just play w/o sound and it doesnt seem to alter their skill.

Somebody I talked to on IRC brought up an interesting point:
For the DW Forums, I wonder if Budko's prboom is used only for TAS demos... as it is undetectable... making a lot of new demo recorders an easy life.
That would also explain why these players refuse to play with the EXEs ... since it doesnt have the comfort of Budko's prboom. (I consider the WinXP/2K obstacle as an invalid argument)

Maybe I am getting old and paranoid :) Still that makes some sense

[Vile]

Radek has said that nosound can even seem less stressful without the constant respawn sounds going off and I agree. The only disadvantage is the few times where sound is the key to completing a certain section (map15 switch-from-below, map27 red door archie...)

[myk]

VinceDSS said:
Somebody I talked to on IRC brought up an interesting point:
For the DW Forums, I wonder if Budko's prboom is used only for TAS demos... as it is undetectable... making a lot of new demo recorders an easy life.
That would also explain why these players refuse to play with the EXEs ... since it doesnt have the comfort of Budko's prboom. (I consider the WinXP/2K obstacle as an invalid argument)

Paranoid or not, it is true that with a widely available TAS engine that can output Doom demos, it becomes hell for an admin to determine if a demo is cheated, since cheating is not just using extensive features like slowmotion and 1000 saves: something like one save and "record from" in a critical point is already a cheat that can make a humongous difference and is practically impossible to detect.

For COMPET-N to continue I think nowadays it'd possibly be necessary to make it using Chocolate Doom, or a modification of Chocolate Doom that somehow certifies demos... either through some new demo format (that mustn't modify the physics) or through some verification server system, somehow. Otherwise a competitive environment is completely impossible.

[Grazza]

VinceDSS said:

For the DW Forums, I wonder if Budko's prboom is used only for TAS demos... as it is undetectable...

There are generally tell-tale signs if TAS features have been used extensively.

Having said that, we're not always too aggressive in challenging people who submit demos that look a little bit suspicious, and err on the side of avoiding any danger of false accusations.

But when it comes down to the crunch, we're basically relying on people to be honest (this also goes for compet-n). As myk indicates, if someone understands the detection methods and only cheats in "subtle" ways, then it is very hard to detect.

[xit-vono]

Well I think that cheating could be a problem, especially since we don't have experience catching them. I don't know if there are any cheaters right now. I'm guessing not, but hopefully if people get too much advantage with TAS, then it should be able to be detected. I wouldn't bother with any certification system because I think it would be too much hassle, and who knows if there is some way to break it. Anyways I think something like chocolate doom is necessary to jump start compet-n by getting people with WinXP to play. I know it's possible to play without sound, but personally I prefer to have the sounds so I can hear what's going on.

[VinceDSS]

niv was working on a sound driver for the EXEs. It's supposed to play the sounds through directsound, avoiding the XP/2K issues.

But his work is unfinished, so maybe somebody could carry it on ?

I will post links when I manage to get to him :)



Myk's idea about a server certification with chocolate is great, but I dont really know how this is feasible. Maybe it could check parameters like game speed for each demo attmepts... and add a certification code or even encrypt the demo with a unique server made key.

[Fredrik]

A verification server could work as follows: you must record while connected to the server, either recording the demo entirely on the server or synchronizing every few tics, so the server can verify that recording is performed in real time without slow motion or save states. Of course, this doesn't prevent anyone from recording a cheated demo in advance and then feeding it as regular input to the server. The workaround is to replace the game's RNG with a cryptographically secure random number stream supplied by the server in real time. The entire random number sequence would have to be stored in the demo file; this wouldn't be doom2.exe compatible at all, but I can't think of any other way to do it. Any certification measure placed in the user's exe is easily broken.

I'd say it's better to simply trust people (within reasonable limits).

[Angus Thermopyle]

I used doom2.exe the last time for my KSutra Map28 speedruns - these were only short demos, 10 seconds long. But the sessions lasted several hours (as usual) and playing it without sound was horrible. I am not a doomgod like Vile or Radek, if they can play without sound, congrats :) For me it's not an option. (Not to forget the lack of atmosphere.)

Recently I've changed from prboom 2.2.4 to Budko's prboom, because of comfort reasons (no stupid window popping up after a recording attempt) and Grazza's recommendation. You can be sure, the settings are the same as they would be with doom(2).exe (except a higher resolution - I hope that's ok, I can't stand 320x240 - and vertical mouse sensitivity turned off):
- no HUD (I can't play with all these little numbers on screen)
- no "a secret is revealed" message (this would break my nerves, luckily I was able to turn this off after half an hour or so)
- no st50.
These features are cheating. I never used them and will never do it. They are ok for TAS of course, but useless for me (TAS demos should look like Sedlo's legendary movies, and I could never do that).

I use the HUD only sometimes when watching my demos to check the number of kills during monster infights (on HR2 Map32 for example) or the exact time, which can be very annoying when the decimals of a speedrun are very low. Normally this means at least an additional hour of recording ;)

Another prboom-plus disadvantage: it's not possible to press a button before the screen is built up, the player wouldn't move. Perhaps I should return to prboom 2.2.4 because of that.

About COMPET-N. I like the IWADs, but their tables are too optimized for me. I doubt I could do anything. The same with Hell Revealed. I don't like the other PWADs (EDIT: to play them, I really enjoy it to watch demos by other players) except Alien Vendetta. It's sad that I can't do anything for it :(
But luckily there are WADs like Scythe, KSutra and TVR!, there's still a lot of stuff to do :)

[VinceDSS]

Alien Vendetta is full of holes, look at the tables, plenty of stuff to do....

[Angus Thermopyle]

Hmm, I could record some Alien Vendetta stuff for DSDA, so I don't have to bother with the exe. Never thought about it :)

Opulent, do you accept AV demos?

[VinceDSS]

is it really so hard to have a dual boot ??

only takes an old HD and couple hours

We did that on Xit-Vono's computer and he seems to be kinda happy with it :)

[Angus Thermopyle]

Feel free to visit me in Germany if you wanna help me with it :)

Honestly, that's not necessary, I still HAVE my old win98 computer - down in the cellar. And it wouldn't be a problem to re-install it on my desk. But I'm a pretty lazy guy ;)

In the last couple of years I recorded lots of demos on Scythe, KSutra, HR2, atm TVR! and other stuff, and had not many thoughts about recording for C-N except Alien Vendetta. But I never tried it seriously. After finishing my actual TVR! mission I want to play KSutra again (and someday KSutra 2 will appear), so I don't know when I'll pay my attention to AV. And if it works with doom2.exe, I'd like to start with filling the empty UV Max holes. Otherwise I'd record them with prboom and post here.

The main problem with C-N is the lack of updates for several years now (jealously looking to Quake SDA with its weekly updates). Why should I upload demos if they are hidden in the incoming folder? I'm sure there are lots of people who even don't know about the great stuff Xit uploaded recently, or Eugene or Kristian. And today I found a Plutonia tyson by a new player. (So it's not really 'dying', Vince.) It's very sad that they don't get the attention they deserve. Nobody would be more happy than I if COMPET-N would be kept up again.

Until this happens I suggest to run a sticky, temporary thread here in this forum with links to all new C-N demos. And if the incoming folder will be full one day (like before last update), this could be a place to upload new demos.

[Angus Thermopyle]

VinceDSS said:

I am not playing solo anymore, I would play doom2.exe coop if only I could find players (I still have 3 win98 comps here:).

I never played coop before. And I have no clue how it works online. I'd like to try it, also w/o sound. But be warned, I'm not a good player. For most of my demos I need several hours...

[myk]

Angus Thermopyle said:
I'd like to try it, also w/o sound.

You'd have to get the old system going; Doom won't connect from newer versions of Windows because the IPX stuff won't work correctly.

[Angus Thermopyle]

Thx, myk. I have no clue how this could work, and it would be too complicated to discuss it here, so I'll ask a friend how it's possible to add a second computer to my DSL connection.

[Grazza]

Angus Thermopyle said:

Until this happens I suggest to run a sticky, temporary thread here in this forum with links to all new C-N demos. And if the incoming folder will be full one day (like before last update), this could be a place to upload new demos.

Done. Let me know how it could be improved, or if it's not working for you.

As for lack of sound, I find it a handicap when I am getting to know a route, and the odd things that can happen along the way. Once I'm familiar with it, and the "choreography" that the monsters tend to follow, the sound effects don't in general help too much.

However, I only tend to switch to Doom2.exe if the slower start in Prboom(-plus) is causing problems, and the demo is a short one where this difference is critical. If I had a great idea for a compet-n demo, I'd probably just play without sound fx, rather than switching to my old Win98 notebook. (Or, more likely, I'd mention the idea in this forum, and hope that someone else would do it better justice than I ever could.)

[myk]

Grazza said:
Done. Let me know how it could be improved, or if it's not working for you.

I can't see the contents of the iframes; on Firefox the scroll bars show but it's blue, like the post background, where the stuff goes (IE seems worse... no bars, just white boxes; but my security settings for Doomworld are pretty high.)

[Grazza]

Hmm, my IE security settings are very high, but this works for me. Anyone got suggestions as to which specific setting might be relevant here? Or a workaround?

[myk]

Grazza said:
Anyone got suggestions as to which specific setting might be relevant here?

There is an option for "Launching programs and files in an IFRAME", but enabling it didn't help.

[Angus Thermopyle]

It works fine for me. I've just downloaded four new MM and MM2 demos done by Eugene.

[emailking]

Are you using version 1.5.0.1 of FireFox? I can see the contents just fine. It's not as clear as on IE, but I can still see them just fine. It's happening because IE is defaulting a white background for the frames (since they have no background) and FireFox is defaulting the a background that matches the surroundings over here. I can only see two ways around this though. Get someone with doom2.net priveledges to put in an explicit white background on those 2 pages, or somehow find a way to change the background color of top post to something that contrasts better with blue and purple.

[myk]

Heh, I just remembered: my IP range is banned from the competn FTP (and I've been using an anonymizer proxy to access incoming.) So it should work fine for most people.