Compet-N: incoming and discussion, part 1 [please post in part 2 instead]

Here's little better and now it's real entry. Thanks Ryback(?) for the route. Some annoying mistakes but I'm happy.

MM - Map26 - UV Fast
Time: 4:18

mm26f418.zip

Share this post


Link to post
Paska said:

That paragraph doesn't mean that everyone has to be dead when you exit? Or do you still have to kill the resurrected monsters again?

Yes, AdamH clarified this many years ago (but it's unfortunate that he left the ambiguous/incorrect wording in the FAQ): resurrected monsters must be rekilled.

Share this post


Link to post
Paska said:

Hell Revealed Map 26
UV -Fast
Time: 38:24
DooM v1.9

I was wondering what you meant with your last post Ryback. I thought you forgot map26. I tried to find your demo from doomedsda and compet-n records and so on.

After I got this run and began to type .txt, your post came up to my mind again. I did deeper search and found your demo, but it was missing one monster so I guess it wasn't really accepted as a compet-n record? I hope this is a valid run because there's no way to kill those 4 monsters. (Well, mancubus wallclipping shots did hit the arch-viles once but it would be just stupid)

So you got this run before watching mine? Nice. Interesting that the times aren't too dissimilar.
I never submitted the old hf26 as a Compet-N demo, partly because Adam was no longer around to authenticate submissions and partly because I didn't think he'd accept it as a valid entry. At the old Compet-N forums there was a bit of debate about what constituted a valid run on this level, given that sometimes the ghosts appear at the end and sometimes they don't. The rule that was decided was that if a ghost showed up you had to kill it. The website wasn't updated, but that ruling seems to have been taken up as part of the stricter way demo categories are enforced these days.
I don't actually remember if the prboom-plus smart total updates when ghost monsters are resurrected, so it might not always be helpful in validating a demo.

On the undone -fasts, I've got a couple week old af27 sitting on the HD at the moment, but it's 33 minutes long and IMO this really should be faster than the current UV record...

Share this post


Link to post
Paska said:

Alien Vendetta
Map29
UV -Fast
Time: 7:56

Yey!


Yay, thanks! Now I don't have to do it. :)

Ryback said:

On the undone -fasts, I've got a couple week old af27 sitting on the HD at the moment, but it's 33 minutes long and IMO this really should be faster than the current UV record...


Upload or it didn't happen.

Share this post


Link to post
Paska said:

Alien Vendetta
Map29
UV -Fast
Time: 7:56

Yey!


Great surprising demo! It shows that you are fast and smooth not only in subtle speedrunning, but also in hardcore fighting. Maybe you can bring the regular UV run down to a really efficient time (sub-5:30).

Share this post


Link to post
Revved said:

Upload or it didn't happen.

C:\>dir af273321.lmp
 Volume in drive C has no label.
 Volume Serial Number is 1419-A2BA

 Directory of C:\

04/25/2011  11:45 AM           281,342 af273321.lmp
               1 File(s)        281,342 bytes
               0 Dir(s)   1,492,353,024 bytes free
Not good enough to share yet though.

Share this post


Link to post

Memento Mori
UV Fast
Episode 1 in 65:59
---------------------------------------------------
Not so sure if I have the naming correct.

6559mm01.zip

Share this post


Link to post

Plutonia
Map 11 (again)
UV-FAST in 2:41
I won't do this map again for a long time so don't worry.

pf11-241.zip

Share this post


Link to post

There's one thing that has been puzzling me for a while now. When going for a UV Max or UV -Fast on Hunted. Is it allowed to leave, let's say, 3 arch-viles to the MAZE and then take the arch-vile exit and if you are lucky, you can kill 3 arch-viles there with one BFG shot and exit the level with 77% kills. That would save plenty of time if one gets lucky and if it is allowed.

Share this post


Link to post

I don't think so.

Adam Hegyi:

When you exit there can't be any monsters alive wandering, be that resurrected or non-resurrected (except lost souls or unkillable).

Share this post


Link to post

I think this is the same deal as E1M8: you need to kill everything that isn't in that final room, and it doesn't matter if you kill anything in that final room.

This comes under "map-specific exceptions", so the normal Max rules are by convention suspended for these specific monsters on these specific maps.

Having said that, this is a more subtle case than e1m8, in that you can choose whether to go into that room or not. I don't recall if there are demos where people use that route, or if this question has been discussed.

I vaguely recall some discussion of the analogous case of maps where the rule is stated as "only 90% secrets is required", and if this means that if you succeed in triggering the officially "problematic" secret, you can skip one of the other ones.

So the questions are:
1) How was the map-specific exception for pl11 stated (if at all)?
2) How have these exceptions been interpreted when there is any ambiguity?

Share this post


Link to post

I think that all level-specific rules are quite apparent in the recorded demos themselves, and if one were to write those rules down, and then if someone else were to record a new run according to a creative interpretation of those rules, the new run would not necessarily be valid.

Share this post


Link to post

Yeah, it could be based on the E1M8 precedent or a ruling to avoid the randomness of the BFG blast damage at the end there, if not both. Substituting those arch-viles for previous ones would be taking the "law by the letter" against its "spirit". Runs exploiting this would be potentially faster yet would be based more on the randomizer than on the player's route, compared to the established ones. The rule already grants the player a handicap, stretching it further with an "open" interpretation would just make it bigger but less sensible.

Share this post


Link to post
Grazza said:

I vaguely recall some discussion of the analogous case of maps where the rule is stated as "only 90% secrets is required", and if this means that if you succeed in triggering the officially "problematic" secret, you can skip one of the other ones.

That'd arguably go against the spirit of the ruling Adam did make, that extra kills/secrets that required unreliable engine glitches to get them weren't needed in a 100% demo.

eg, in Map27 you can get 100% secrets if a particular teleport line doesn't activate. You can imagine someone skipping a different secret, such as the one that closes 30 seconds into the level, optimising their new route, and rerecording until they finally get a run where the teleporter fails. But then you'd be in the position of future runs requiring a repeat of said engine glitch, which is just what Adam didn't want.

Share this post


Link to post

Maybe Adam just stated it in a flawed way like a max definition. Adding that in case you activate secret / kill monsters that are normally unnessesary because of whatever reasons, requirements of activating non-problematic secrets / taking out every other reachable monsters remain.

Share this post


Link to post

Revved said:
Memento Mori UV Respawn Map 21 in 9:29

Great sightseeing experience at about 7:15 (that balcony with hitscanners)

Share this post


Link to post
eternal slumber said:

Yo Ryback, could you please upload your av map27 -fast?


I'll vouch this. Been trying it for a bit and 33 minutes would have been more than fine with me.

Share this post


Link to post

I just wanted to watch it. He could always upload another demo when he gets under 26 mins. Just seems silly to me to keep it private when it's a new unseen record that people have asked to see, yet it's been sitting on the harddrive for a while. I did say "please". :)

Share this post


Link to post

I don't know what it was, maybe Tolwyn's music (also: insrtion MAP05) inspired me to try it?

Requiem, MAP11 (Rats In The Walls by Adam Windsor), UV Max in 2:52

rq11-252.zip

Share this post


Link to post
This topic is now closed to further replies.