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Tormentor667

[Idea] "Fantastic Worlds"

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Yet another WAD idea? Well, just some brainstorming right now and the chance to see what others are thinking about this.

Some weeks ago, Paul Corfiatis started with a new 32 Map Megaward, based on DOOM2.EXE/DOOM2.WAD, no additional stuff, just plain straight vanilla. A discussion arose about what makes up for a good wad and the sense about all this projects that are based on simple ports and standard IWADs.

Though there have been some doomers shared my opinion when they said, something new, and never seen before makes up for a real great map, with replay value and all that stuff (this is also part of my next 2.5D Mapping Article). And c'mon, they are absolutely right, just think about Cyb's VOID or Russel_P's NULLSPACE!

What I'd like to do is leading yet another MEGAWAD with as many maps possible, but each of the maps must be unique, they must be special with a location or setting that hasn't seen before in any wad... think about floating buildings in the void, think about a medieval castle in space, think about an organic planet surface and UAC structures (like in Unreal 2), you can even think about something totally different, something that doesn't make any sense, it just should look different, new and... it should be interesting to recreate that idea with the Doom engine :)

The base of this would be ZDoom.99/GZDoom1.0.03, so your map can also be based on Boom and vanilla Doom2 but I would recommend ZDoom. New monsters and new weapons would be allowed as new textures, flats, sounds and music would be. But before we start, we should create a good package of resources with lots of textures that fit together...

Just let me know what you guys think about this, brainstorm with me about your ideas and let's see if such a project would make sense :)

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KingofFlames said:

I like the idea, but you know Torm, that most people can't run GZDoom.


You mean most people have computers over 6 years old O_O

(You're talking nonsense, just in case you can't take the hint)

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This sounds like a really eclectic idea; and it would likely die before completion, in addition to being quite uneven in the end (if whatever is done is released.) If you're going to have a pool of resources to use at the start, not only would that specific pool of stuff limit how varied things will be, but will also slow map development according to the requirements of the graphics and resources team. If each map is going to be unique, why not release them separately, without either the pressure or limitations of having to fit it into a project? Thus the maker wouldn't even have to limit themselves to Doom, Boom or ZDoom and could also use JDoom or Eternity if they wanted... no silly hotchpotch megawad requirement getting in the way.

If you want something really unique an cohesive, do the following:

  • A set of new resources, using DOOM stuff only if it fits very well (like in a true TC.)
  • A quite distinct and new functionality for the wad, tied to the new resources.
  • A specific engine (probably either ZDoom or Eternity) used to the fullest extent.
For that you need to set out with a consistent concept, and then draw out its blueprint, from there working on both the resources, the maps and the functionality of the wad. Since you've come to a concensus at the beginning, each map setting, monster, and story idea is already somewhat established allowing people to plan ahead before everything is completely done (perhaps using placeholders for mapping and such before the final functional resources are done.)

That is, "PCs" that are still DOOM in most ways will inevitably be compared to the game, that is central here, and will suffer in regard to uniqueness and authenticity, and also they've been done before, they are nothing new, aside from a few quirks that aren't central. But if you actually make something truly new, that'd stand out as such, which is important in a case where novelty is the key, and creativity in the broadest sense, the point.

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TheDarkArchon said:

You mean most people have computers over 6 years old O_O

(You're talking nonsense, just in case you can't take the hint)

But what about people that have crappy graphics cards?

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This may be off topic, but what happened with KDIZD?

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A low end Geforce FX costs $30 or less if you get it used. Such a card is fully sufficient to run medium sized levels at decent frame rates. With large levels you'd run into performance problems in any case if your system is underpowered, no matter whether you use software or hardware rendering.

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KingofFlames said:
But what about people that have crappy graphics cards?

Actually it doesn't matter; both the concern over graphics cards, as well as anything done just to please a wide audience, are worthless to a competent designer. The choice whether to make a completely classic wad with standard resources and "vanilla" functionality or to create something truly original must stem from what the developers like. Hardware limits aren't any different than preferential ones; if you make a wad with some state of the art enhanced engine you're going to leave out some people that like other engines much more, or prefer classic stuff by a good margin (or at least they'll only play it in a passing way), and if you release a classic wad those looking for new stuff may be less interested (if at all.) Plus buying a new graphics card is no big deal... or else who cares?

Tormentor667 said:
And c'mon, they are absolutely right, just think about Cyb's VOID or Russel_P's NULLSPACE!

They are not "right", it is their opinion. People should start growing up and learn to understand how things work around here in this semi-community where we meet somewhat distantly with our quite varying conceptions and tastes. There is no "best" wad or engine because that depends on each of us and there is no central concensus of what is "best" and there never will be, because we merely meet here to share our creations or to play, but are otherwise independent of each other and come from even quite different parts of the world. Seeing such a thing is crucial for the development of truly good projects, or else they tend to become lame half-assed stuff that instead of excelling in itself, is merely trying to be "best" comparing itself to presumed heresay and illusionary standards that don't exist. Make what you like, make it with the interest of one that really loves what they do, and not as if there were something to prove. There isn't, because we are all different.

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Concerning GZDoom: If it is based on ZDoom.99, there will be no specific GZDoom features and that means there is no need to use GZDoom at all! (although ZDoom.99 isn't released yet, we know that the source already contains custom weapons and other .96x stuff)

Concerning the pre-collected Resources: This does not automatically mean, that mappers aren't allowed to add their own new textures and resources to their map, it just helps to get some "consistency" to the maps at all, that other mappers also can use resources from other maps what makesa up for a better interconnectivity BUT doesn't limit each mappers imaginary freedom!

Concerning the engine: Concerning the fact that ZDoom is obviously the most powerful engine of all (considering the amount of effects and also the amound of mods released in the past), we should use that one BUT it is still possible to create such an "innovative and impressive new MAP" with just BOOM features if done well!

Concering the megawad-decision: I would try to get another ZDoom.org hosted subforum and special rights for all the teammates and that would really help the developement of this project, makes it easy to share progress, screenshot, information and developement overall and it makes more fun to work on a project with many other prominent or less-prominent mappers togerther instead of just working on your own!

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KingofFlames said:

But what about people that have crappy graphics cards?


A fresh, not-EBayed graphics card can be bought for ~£60 in the UK, which roughly translates to $150. Assuming prices in Austrailia are more or less the same as British ones, would it be too much of a pain to save up for one?

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Tormentor667 said:

Lot of concerning


And concerning KDIZD? :-(
In an apromiximed way, what's the percent done?

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TheDarkArchon said:

You mean most people have computers over 6 years old O_O

(You're talking nonsense, just in case you can't take the hint)


Whats nonsense is the belief that GZDoom should run on everything. The Laptop I bought in 2006 refuses to run any 1.x version of GZDoom, because it starts raping my monitor, my chipest, and itself (usually it does some fucked up tiling with the menus). This computer also runs Oblivion just fine.

On my other computer running a ZDoom engine causes SQL Developer 2005 to crash every time (which is fine really because I dont use it for gaming anymore anyway).

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Tormentor667 said:

Concerning the engine[/b]: Concerning the fact that ZDoom is obviously the most powerful engine of all (considering the amount of effects and also the amound of mods released in the past)

This is the kind of thing I'm talking about; for your own sake and sanity, and in sake of the truth and the facts, there's no need to go around trying to justify what to use or what development line to go by with supposedly objective remarks of what's apparently better. The amount of mods made for it only means that its features are less innovative, and doesn't add to the engine's "power" which isn't greater than Eternity's or even JDoom's when used to its fullest extent or purpose, nor is the "power" of the engine necessarily a reason to use its particular set of features. There's nothing bad about you proposing a ZDoom project, it's obvious it's the one you (and fellow diehard ZDoom fans) prefer, on the contrary, but how will one present a project? As a counterproject in relation to or as a reaction to Corfiatis' wad? As something that relies one "the powers of ZDoom"? As something that is here to prove its superiority? Nothing of that sort can be truely good (not will it provide a good working environment, nor attract the better people, at least for long), perhaps a bit, here and there, but more is required; the concept of the game or project itself is what matters, as opposed to leaving it as a blank to be filled in, supported by the random skill of those who join and the reputed magic of the engine used.

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Myk, tu forma de debatir, opinar, y argumentar es muy parecida a la mía qué carrera estudiás (o estudiaste)?

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*applaudes*

Very nicely put, I couldn't agree more. There's no such thing as a best or worst port, it's all a matter of preference.

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@Myk - You are absolutely right, no doubt but you actually don't understand me correctly. It's up to the mapper himself to create something great, it's up to his mind, his imaginary and if the idea itself is good, there's no need for a certain sourceport but well, I just didn't want to say "This is for BOOM only" and as most of the "sourceportusers" are ZDoom users, I thought, that this would be the best decision. I could have also said "for Doomsday" or "for Legacy", but ZDoom made most sense to me (popularity and the fact that GZDoom even supports Legacy maps!)

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With all this doom philosophy aside, I look forward to seeing some original ideas. I don't think a megawad is a realistic approach though. I'm working on circus667 where about 90% of the entities were created from scratch and its taking a long time. A megawad with many different themes would be like circus667 X 32. I suggest only making a few maps.

If anyone that works on this project needs sounds or sprites or something, I could probably help.

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HobbsTiger1 said:

The Laptop I bought in 2006 refuses to run any 1.x version of GZDoom, because it starts raping my monitor, my chipest, and itself (usually it does some fucked up tiling with the menus).


That's weird, cause the laptop I bought in 2006 runs GZDoom 1.0.01 just fine.

And I bought it used, it was originally made in 2001...

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When I was thinking a bit more about Shtbags's Happy Time Circus, I even got ideas about creating other settings as maps... "Chess Boards","A Toilet & Canalisation", "Battle on a Planet with Time Pressure, while another moon is colliding"... thx like that.. wierd things... epic things...

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this is kinda off topic...but where can I find this "Happy Time Circus? I can't seem to locate it with id games' Search feature.

ON another note, I've always wanted to make a deathmatch toilet map where you can "flush" the toilet and kill all the players in the porceline bowl of death. I made this for Half life....got quite a few laughs out of it.

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HobbsTiger1 said:

(usually it does some fucked up tiling with the menus).

Zdoom 2.0.98. Messages menu borked.

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