ZDaemon or Skulltag?

[RazTK]

Chaindude said:

Heh, I know Raz--that was just to emphasize how the complaining aspect gets in the way of a little menu surfing.

Oh well, it's good to mention that anyway ;-)

[myk]

Chaindude said:
"When in Rome, do as the Romans" <-- This is for you people (noone in particular) who bitch excessively about ports.

Yeah, but Rome was brought to its knees by the Germanic hordes... and fortunately these engines have been tweaked a good deal recently to allow at least decent casual play.

If you play on a port, expect things to be different. Otherwise, install win98 and Kahn--end of story.

That depends; I would more than likely refrain from playing on a server with settings I consider skewed or weird. Plus any dedicated player knows the value of playing standards, to one degree or another.

What's worthwhile about what you're saying in regard to "omg i would have won on doom2" applies to many things and has to do with not making lame excuses, yet many times variants of these phrases are merely facts, or also replies to taunting or trolling that purposely diregards differences we're supposed to expect under different settings, to discredit and deride players who have specific merits. It's not cool if someone whines about the settings, but it's also lame if someone acts like a jerk disregarding the effect of the settings on a player that hardly plays on them or does not like them.

[Belial]

AlexMax said:

Unfortuniatly, the prediction in ZDaemon is flawed to the point where it's impossible to walk in a straight line without getting jerked around by the server who thinks it has a better idea of where you should be than you do.

Never had that problem. I can SR50 through maps without any 'prediction' issues, so I guess I'm gonna call BS on that one unless you can explain what you mean.

And of course the community of ZDaemon is total ass. If the Doom Community was the internet, ZDaemon is AOL, catering to the lowest common denominator of player in order to boast about it's fairly large playerbase, run by complete morons, and years behind the rest of the world.

Is that really important from a player's POV? I play it for the game, not for the 'community' or whatever the majority of the people using ZDaemon are. I know several people that I like to DM with and some more people that I like to play CTF with. End of story.

If I had to recomend one, I'd say go with Skulltag, as it doesn't force the community down your throat.

So where does ZDaemon do that forcing thing?

[myk]

Belial said:
So where does ZDaemon do that forcing thing?

I'm not really sure what that "shoving the community down your throat" is supposed to mean, either. If anything, the dev team has an obsessive compulsion to manage "the community", although naturally the people playing or using the program are of all sorts an in many cases by no means zombies following "The ZDaemon" and are sometimes quite critical.

As for "the ZDaemon community being total shit" (or the retarded comment about it being "full of racists"... WTF?) and similar comments, that's what I brought up above; let's use language that's to the point. ZDaemon's community is quite heterogeneous for anyone to conclude it is the devil. Few things are worse than than sweeping generalizations. I use ZDaemon sometimes, so in a way I am part of its community, and people I think are pretty cool use it even more or even run servers for it.

[RazTK]

myk said:

...or the retarded comment about it being "full of racists"... WTF?...

Sad, isn't it?

[Chaindude]

myk said:

What's worthwhile about what you're saying in regard to "omg i would have won on doom2" applies to many things and has to do with not making lame excuses, yet many times variants of these phrases are merely facts, or also replies to taunting or trolling that purposely diregards differences we're supposed to expect under different settings, to discredit and deride players who have specific merits. It's not cool if someone whines about the settings, but it's also lame if someone acts like a jerk disregarding the effect of the settings on a player that hardly plays on them or does not like them.

I don't question the fact that people will sometimes boast (rather stupidly) in such manners like: "Ha, I beat an EXE player the other day" or say things like "Owned." Everyone has their convictions on how things would work out under particular settings/style of play, and surely in this area you are correct.

The context of my phrase was to point out the fact that among the troll demographic (oldschoolers as well as newschoolers, in the same amounts but different flavors), you will see a lot of these attitudes trickle down into other aspects of DooM such as forums and IRC channels. Then there is the presence of these attitudes in the so-called "politics": that one engine is best for NS while the other is OS; one has better players, one doesn't; one is closer to the real deal, the other not, etcetera.

The Rome phrase was a continuation of this theme that people complain too much when things aren't comfortably set in their favor (whether it's support for a particular opinion within the community or the server settings in-game). Perhaps things are too simple for me--if I accept a game with someone in a port, then I should be able to swallow the possibility of losing or not playing under my strongest style (ns/os). I've played DooM since the early-mid 90s and understand the rigors of Oldschool, yet I see people from my same "generation" constantly think of themselves as good players while talking crap and making excuses when they lose (a game or argument in forums/irc).

[LexiMax]

Belial said:

Never had that problem. I can SR50 through maps without any 'prediction' issues, so I guess I'm gonna call BS on that one unless you can explain what you mean.

It's much more noticable when going through tight corridors and when transitioning up and down different heights, your position will be off, which is enough to fuck you up if you get caught on a piece of architecture. Running around on a wide open map, it's not so noticable.

EDIT: I just now tested it. It IS noticable on a wideopen map, I was just testing it and i got jerked back violently while straferunning.

EDIT2: Yeah, I don't see how you're NOT noticing it. Maybe you play on servers two blocks from your house or something...

EDIT3: Laffo, doors dont even close all the way.

[DooMAD]

Would you prefer the game desynched and everyone gets disconnected?

[Belial]

AlexMax said:

Yeah, I don't see how you're NOT noticing it. Maybe you play on servers two blocks from your house or something...

Doom2.us, DSG, Oblacek, etc.

Even if it happened it didn't bother me enough for me to notice it.

[LexiMax]

DooMAD said:

Would you prefer the game desynched and everyone gets disconnected?

What the fuck kind of fecicious question is this? Of course I don't want people to get disconnected. At the same time, I'd prefer if the netcode didn't have half-assed interpolation and such a heavy handed way of handling player movement, but then again you probably quit reading this response after the second sentance.

[Ralphis]

I prefer Skulltag over ZDaemon. However, this is purely based on personal experience issues with those that run each project. In the long run, I don't really use either anymore and disagree with the way both projects are managed.

My issues with ZDaemon lie in multiple places. Place 1 is that I don't like most of the ZDaemon "Dev" team. Might as well put this out in the open off the bat

2 is their closed source nature. This is even MORE evident in Skulltag. Doom has survived so long due to the source being opened up. While everywhere else in the community moves forward, this corner (multiplayer) has moved BACKWARD.

3. Zdaemon Dev team plays big brother. They decide where you play and when you play. In order to play, you need to authenticate through their master server. They have members of the dev team that post trojans labeled as cheats that delete your IWAD. This is illegal.

4 is also illegal. Their program downloads all wads, INCLUDING IWADS. This issue was raised by myself years ago and went unheard. They're doing what they can to build their player base by illegally distributing Doom. When confronted, I recieved the response that "Doom is not commercially viable anymore anyway." Of course, I think the collector's edition released only a few years ago would disagree as well as ID Software.

In the end, it really spells that the multiplayer community is really in trouble in terms of progress and a viable solution needs to be met.

O

[DooMAD]

AlexMax said:

What the fuck kind of fecicious question is this? Of course I don't want people to get disconnected. At the same time, I'd prefer if the netcode didn't have half-assed interpolation and such a heavy handed way of handling player movement, but then again you probably quit reading this response after the second sentance.

My point was, regardless of your preference, it's better than nothing. And, like Belial, I haven't noticed it.

[Nautilus]

Each port has its own pros and cons.

Skulltag is welcoming to newschoolers, offering a plethora of distinct features and game modes, yet has a comparably small player-base and there aren't too many servers that run with oldschool settings. Its community is better than that of ZDaemon to some extent since it is smaller and there aren't as many things to dispute over, yet the community is still constituted mostly by morons. The administration is better than ZDaemon's because it's not as tyrannical and does not partake in the said illegal activities and it also views things more lightly and is far more lenient and light-hearted. Plus, Skulltag has a far better netcode.

ZDaemon attempts to stick more to the oldschool end of the spectrum at some points and has a far larger player-base.
However, the administration is poor due to its corruption that stems from illegal activity such as posting what is a trojan that is under the guise of a cheat that can delete commercial files such as IWADs on an affected person's computer. The corruption of the administration also finds its roots in mere assumptions devoid of any thorough investigation and the desperate, inexorable measures taken to increase the player-base and enforce rules. The player-base is fraught with blatant drama and stupidity. (Skulltag's player-base is also marked by such characteristics yet to a somewhat lesser extreme.)

I prefer neither; I would prefer csDoom.
Or...

[kristus]

Nautilus said:

I would prefer csDoom.
Or...

OH YEAH there were NO DRAMA surrounding CSDOOM EVER! Were you even around when CSdoom was the number one Multiplayer port?

[myk]

Nautilus said:
I would prefer csDoom.

Heh, more like "or" because between the bugs it had, the flamewars that escalated around it, and the fact that it was ZDoom + QW code, it was quite problematic, too.

[Nautilus]

Yes, I did play csDoom briefly, and the community wasn't perfect, but I wouldn't say, from my view, that it was as bad as some corners of the ZDaemon and Skulltag communities. The port itself is decent, yet it can prove to not be too decent of an option either (hence the "or"), and it would be good to have, you know... a new, distinguished and stable port with a placid community that lacks stupidity.

[kristus]

Nautilus said:

a new, distinguished and stable port with a placid community that lacks stupidity.

And then they lived happily ever after.

[fodders]

I still say Doomserv was the best :D

[Grazza]

Ralphis said:

When confronted, I recieved the response that "Doom is not commercially viable anymore anyway." Of course, I think the collector's edition released only a few years ago would disagree as well as ID Software.

Did you try reporting this to id?

[deathz0r]

<Ralphis> i emailed teh id software
<Ralphis> about getwad

[Fletcher`]

Fuck the politics, just play the game.

While I haven't played Zdaemon, that means I can' bash it, nor would I anyway. I have played Skulltag a little, and found it to be fun. Personally, I've yet to meet these bollocking morons you all seem to keep pointing out.

[RTC_Marine]

Nautilus said:

you know... a new, distinguished and stable port with a placid community that lacks stupidity.

we know something some other people don't.. ;)

[Draxamus]

ZDAEMON, cause that's where the 1on1 competition is at. Hate the administration there, though. Take this issue of cheating--they refused to even acknowledge its existence in the current version until recently, despite many demos showcasing blatant aimbotting/wallhacking, and the testimony of numerous players who know this game inside and out. Forget trying to raise ANY issue on the zdaemon forums where opposing views are being expressed. It WILL BE CLOSED. Almost every thread there is closed soon after it is posted. This same sorta attitude applies to their crazy IRC chat mods.

But the main admin team is the worst of all. They say they fix issues, but give you know real details. They don't release source code either, so how do you know what they did. They pretend as if it's impossible for some players to cheat, until someone actually uploads an aimbot/wallhack to a public site. Cheaters have been allowed to enter and win various official tournaments, so those are a joke. Now they put that intimidating red-lettered warning up on the main site. That's a joke too. Half the people that were banned for cheating are already unbanned via whatever lame excuses they came up with. The admin team doesn't mind them as much as they do people who care about and want to bring issues to the forefront of the community. Heaven forbid you question the direction of the project. That'll definitely you'll get chewed out by the ravenous administrators.

Also forget about having any sense of humor anywhere: forums, chat, or in-game. That'll get you banned forever.

That said, I've played skulltag a few times, and it seemed to be devoid of life. ZDAEMON is where you'll find all the good 1on1 players--especially map01. You'll also find plenty of big CTF games going on all throughout the day. So I just try to ignore the crazy people in charge, and just play now.

[OmegaJ4]

I thought Skulltag looked slightly better.

Well. I'm going to try it now...

[kristus]

Draxamus said:

ZDAEMON, cause that's where the 1on1 competition is at.

Skulltag runs 3 Duel Tournaments a month. (beginner, intermediate and advanced)

[Draxamus]

Who cares about tournaments. ZDAEMON has them too, anyway. But I'm talkin about real 1on1 games.

[myk]

Draxamus said:
But I'm talkin about real 1on1 games.

With Chewy, Sedlo, Titan66, Traci Lords, psy-mushroom, badfish, etc.

[EarthQuake]

Draxamus said:
Take this issue of cheating--they refused to even acknowledge its existence in the current version until recently

I don't think the possibility of cheating has ever left their minds. Cheating did not even become a serious issue until recently, however the possibility of cheating has never been dismissed. And lots of people have been banned for cheating before.

Forget trying to raise ANY issue on the zdaemon forums where opposing views are being expressed. It WILL BE CLOSED. Almost every thread there is closed soon after it is posted.

Want me to cite endless examples where you are wrong?

This same sorta attitude applies to their crazy IRC chat mods.

I can think of only one particular person that fits your description, and I'm not mentioning names. The rest of the ops are not remotely like that. I know because I'm one of them. However, all of us are fair. We don't kick, ban, or mute people without reason to or without warning them. Who wants to see trolls, spammers, flamers, and people constantly talking about sex, warez, or how they think ZDaemon sucks?

Also forget about having any sense of humor anywhere: forums, chat, or in-game. That'll get you banned forever.

ORLY. WHY AM I STILL THERE? LOL

Dude, you obviously have demons to face with all the ranting and overexaggerating. I could go on and find more flaws in your Mack Truck of a forum post, especially on your stance of the horrible administration that I just don't see, but I'm not very good at arguing.

[myk]

EarthQuake said:
Dude, you obviously have demons to face with all the ranting and overexaggerating.

I don't think he's exaggerating. Not much, at least. It sounds like he's a sincere user of the engine and more like he's expressing his concerns, from his perspective. And if you take it so personally you're as blind as he seems to be to you. ZDaemon's closed (in many ways; from the source, through the "please let me post" forum, to the "chat only through our launcher" IRC channel) nature predisposes its team to often be very touchy or otherwise "on the defensive" when an issue is brought up, and inclines people to be distrustful, often even when they like using the engine. And with the exchange here between you and him, we have an illustrative example, actually. I mean, you're generally a very calm person online as far as I've seen, but look at what this does to you.

If you want to send an email after going to the ZDaemon page it says the admin has taken his email out due to spam "and other reasons" (and that you should use that chat thing instead.) Okey dokey, Bill Gates, Jr! Even John Carmack and John Romero have readily available email addresses.

[DooMAD]

myk said:

the "chat only through our launcher" IRC channel

The old #zdaemon channel on freenode still has some staff in it if you're desperate to avoid the launcher.