Most Detailed Maps

[Nmn]

More Detail causes (if done correctly) automatically Better Design, mapping is just like drawing

Excuse me, but that's complete nonsense. I advise you to read some books on drawing (not how to draw Batman, but something more serious, like "Eye of Painter" by A.Loomis).

[Tormentor667]

Well.. kill me and crucify me if you want to :) But this is how it works for me and I don't think that it comes out that bad at all! ;)

[Graf Zahl]

Still, your statement was utterly wrong. Even well made detail doesn't necessarily improve quality. Some things aren't complex so trying to make them complex is just wrong.

[CODOR]

A designer knows he has achieved perfection, not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.
-- Antoine de Saint-Exupery

The point at which Tormentor667 sees nothing left to take away just seems to be higher than most peoples'...

[Tormentor667]

Graf Zahl said:

Some things aren't complex so trying to make them complex is just wrong.

Yeah that's actually true!

Concerning my Way of Mapping, it heavily depends on the quality and "detail" of textures I use in my maps. I found out that TNT maps aren't as heavily detailed as some of my parts in KDiZD but still look better.
When I work on an area, a room or a whole map, I just start to build what I had in mind before, a small vision of the general layout of a map or room. While I am working on this room, I always check how it looks in game, wether I use DB's 3D Mode or I actually test the map. If I see some empty places, walls, floors, ceilings or what else, I try to think about something that makes sense to be there, in simple cases, lights, computer panels, in other cases complicated structures like lava tubes, stalagmites with metal bars, holes, bridges, computers or whatever fits there, even things, corpses, trees or stuff. And I just repeat this until I can enter a room of mine and say: "Yes, that looks real, that looks natural, this is how I had it in mind before!"
Though I have to admit that this point of being pleased with a room/location for me goes very far and very close to the limit until it really looks "overdetailed", but I think, as long as my detail makes sense and feels right (and nobody complains about it ;)), it's just okay! :)

[Frederick the Great]

When designing a map, I first design a maze: The maze has no reflection on what the doom map will look like, but will chart the routes that the player will need to take.

Once i've done this simple maze, I then work at developing that maze into something that doesn't look like a maze, but retains the same route system that the maze had. There are numerous programs that are free on the net that can generate the mazes i can use.

Architecture & Textures are supposed to compliament one another; the best way for any level designer to study the technique is to observe more recently developed games.

[Russell_P]

myk said:

This goes beyond opinion; it's language (including what I replied to Russel, though I'm not sure he understood.)

I did understand, but was called away before having time to reply. When I did reply I just bashed out an opinion without taking your comments into account. I really should be more diligent about replying.

I'll put my hand up and admit that I'm probably guilty of using 'detail' as a general term for the appearence of a level, be it aesthetically pleasing or not.

myk said:

Maybe you can say texture detailing if you go at length to use very specific textures for many different locations and spots.

This is what I really had in mind when I made my initial comments about texure use. I would definitely argue that, when textures are made to measure and work in conjuction with sectors, it is fair to refer to textures as being part of the detailing.

[Afterglow]

KING REOL WAS DA BOMB IN PHANTOMS YO.

[ellmo]

kristus said:

You realize how many designers and artists turned in their graves when you made that statement? (and those who are alive probbaly died)

[/b]QUOTE1 Kevin Mullet and Darrel Sano (1995) - Designing Visual Interfaces.
QUOTE2 Leonardo Da Vinci.
QUOTE3 Bertholdt Brecht.
QUOTE4 Thoreau.

I don't think it's a good way to prove somebody's wrong, because he speaks against something already spoken. Quoting the greatest artists is just of no use if you can't make your own opinion.

But one thing is true. Many people confuse [b]detail with good visuals. Even if you mix a lot of brown textures, with brown flats, with brown monsters and brown items.. if youcopy+paste a lot... if our map has an avreage of 100 sectors per 256x256 units - then it really is detailed. But how does it look?

Saying that something has a lot of detail does not specify it's quality. So you'd have to state if a lot of detail you have encountered is a good detial or not. Being useful is a completely different matter.
..as well as your own, subjective opinion on everything you see.

[Tormentor667]

ellmo said:

But one thing is true. Many people confuse detail with good visuals. Even if you mix a lot of brown textures, with brown flats, with brown monsters and brown items.. if youcopy+paste a lot... if our map has an avreage of 100 sectors per 256x256 units - then it really is detailed. But how does it look?

Saying that something has a lot of detail does not specify it's quality. So you'd have to state if a lot of detail you have encountered is a good detial or not. Being useful is a completely different matter.

Are you sure with what you say? Build this area in about 10 minutes, just brown, with copy n paste!

[Dutch Doomer]

I can't make that in ten minutes it takes me a bit longer, looks nice even if it has alot of copy and paste.
Im an copy and paste mapper myself I don't have any of problems with those kind of maps.
If the gameplay makes up for it I can't complain.

Somehow it reminds me a little to dead simple it must be the layout and the brown textures :)

[Apocalypse]

Nice one tormentor667

[Russell_P]

needs more brown

[Tormentor667]

Russell_P said:

needs more brown

Yeah, too much white,grey and yellow in there, need to work on that :P

@dutchdevil - Well, yeah, just wanted to show off that copy&paste + monotone color chosement doesn't instantly make up for a bad map or bad design.

[ellmo]

Tormentor667 said:

Are you sure with what you say? Build this area in about 10 minutes, just brown, with copy n paste!

And I say it looks quite good... 7/10
I repeat: "The only thing that matters - does it look good?"

[daimonreloaded]

Congestion 1024

[Darkfyre]

Don't mean to toot my own horn, but I'm going to anyway :p

If you feel like the huge download, get Hellcore, as the re-release isn't going to be for a bit.

Maps 04, 16, 24, 29 and by all 32 are examples of good detailing.

In the new release maps 01 and 19 are guaranteed great and detailed to Hell, and hopefully 23 and 32 will get some more work.

*toot* *toot*

[Use]

Tormentor667 said:

Are you sure with what you say? Build this area in about 10 minutes, just brown, with copy n paste!

Yeah, I can tell. Yawnfest 2006.

[Tormentor667]

Use3D said:

Yeah, I can tell. Yawnfest 2006.

Compare it to other maps, I think this area looks quite nice although I was limited to just brown!

[Csonicgo]

kristus said:

You realize how many designers and artists turned in their graves when you made that statement? (and those who are alive probbaly died)

"Simplicity plays a central role in all timeless designs. We appreciate solutions that - all other things being equal - solve problems in a clear, economical, fashion. The most powerful designs are always the result of a continuous process of simplification and refinement." Kevin Mullet and Darrel Sano (1995) - Designing Visual Interfaces.

"Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication." Leonardo Da Vinci.

"...it is simplicity that is difficult to make." Bertholdt Brecht.

"Simplify, simplify, simplify!" Thoreau

AGREED. there's a reason I remember fava beans and not TNT.

[Use]

Tormentor667 said:

Compare it to other maps, I think this area looks quite nice although I was limited to just brown!

I expect a NEW TNT map in 10 minutes!!

[deathz0r]

Tormentor667 said:

More Detail causes (if done correctly) automatically Better Design,

What the hell are you smoking?

[Darkfyre]

To interject:

Detail is the most important aspect of level creation. It doesn't mean you do what most people do and throw fancy lights everywhere, make billion stepped beveled floors and ceilings, and make senseless computers everywhere to plug space.

Detail is important by far, but it has to MAKE SENSE! Any bit of detail in a map should have a purpose, and of the utmost importance be realistic (unless of course, we're going for surrealism, then you can get away with anything).

I remember after getting maps submitted in for Hellcore, I sent an email out about how to make hallways interesting, along with a wad with 3 hallways that showed how a hallway doesn't have to be boring and still make sense. I think I used all 3 examples later in my maps too :p

Detail to hell, yes, but make sure it flows with the theme of the map and is either unique, or makes perfect sense. The other problem is that most authors either can make a great detailed map and have blah gameplay, or vice versa.

Or am I just on crack?

[Lutrov71]

If you can get a map too look great using as little sectors as possible, then I'd call that a good map. In my opinion maps that look good and have less detail are better looking and more well designed.

[myk]

Darkfyre said:
Detail is important by far, but it has to MAKE SENSE! Any bit of detail in a map should have a purpose, and of the utmost importance be realistic (unless of course, we're going for surrealism, then you can get away with anything).

Not sure about your maps, they might be okay and all, but this is the kind of thinking that makes the worst maps, at least as far as "developed" maps where the author spends some time considering the nuances and specifics.

The other problem is that most authors either can make a great detailed map and have blah gameplay, or vice versa.

Because a map's nature is ultimately defined by the design principles behind it, given enough time to develop.

[Darkfyre]

Everybody always has different ways of editing. Build the blank empty rooms first, gameplay and detail after. Doing gameplay during or after the construction. I'm so bad with technicalities I usually draw everything out, give each room or area a theme, what things would be in these areas, what these areas would have for layout, etc. But that's just the way I am, intricate detail (but not beyond ridiculous) with fully planned gameplay is what I do. I tend to think my maps don't suck, but beauty is in the eye of the beholder :)

The fact that me and Fusion always look over eachothers maps and nit pick everything to fix also helps polish, since we both have our own skills in editing.

[Kinsie]

Detail's a tricky thing, but if something looks good, it looks good, sector count be damned!

Although to be honest, while super-detailed maps like HedRox are pretty much just wanking off with a map editor, they're a guilty pleasure of mine, as it's always interesting to see just what complexities people can reach with the Doom engine.

That's me justifying the fact I like HedRox, by the way. :)

[Darkfyre]

Fully agree :)

I love seeing what crazy stuff people can pull out of their asses, especially without using ports :p

[Ezxariarch]

The most detailed maps I've played are either Congestion 1024 (just because there is so much stuff cramped into that tiny area). next would be Tormentor's TNT or the Tower of Suffer he did for me so far.

As for what detail is, as an artist, I think it's the correct usage of visual stimulus. I've seena lot of maps where that are loads of nothing buy CRAP. Litterally CRAP; All brown textures. Sure, tehre are about 5000 secotos in that one room, an probably 200,000 line segments, but it still likes like a room made from the stuff you flush down.

Lots of sector and textures doesn't mean good detail, since detail isn't always a good thing. Sometimes it can be a major distraction as you wont be able to tell a wall from a stair case, a monster from a patch of texture, etc. Details by no means equal a good map. My favorite use of detail is Scuba Steves GB doom or Action doom. They aren't all that complex, so it doesn't make my eyes bleed just trying to play it, but just enough to make it look realistic relative to doom-wise).

[Kaiser]

Detail is not about how many linedefs and sectors you can push, but how well you use the textures.