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invictius

the ethics of doom

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This might be the strangest post ever...

I don't really like newer FPS'. Not sure why, maybe the fact that they revolve more on killing human beings? I check out pwad's primarily for the architecture, I'm desensitized from blowing the crap out of imps, cybs, etc, and former humans, well, you're just putting them out of their misery... I'm not at all saying that FPS' promote violence or any of that bs. Oh, I probably should include that I mostly play jdoom with md2's, so former human models are a bit more realistic... I don't really know why I'm posting this, so I'll make a reason... umm... to ask if I'm insane?

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If I can get through a level without harming any of the animals, then that's my preferred way of playing. Outwitting them seems more elegant to me than blasting the crap out of them. Them being or not being human doesn't really make much difference. They're just things in a game which, as I see it, is more like an interactive real-time logic puzzle than a simulation.

invictius said:

This might be the strangest post ever...

You must never have seen Username's posts.

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Maybe my problem with newer FPS' is not so much human opponents, but simply the lack of gameplay quality. Another thing that attracts me to doom - more pwads that I could possibly ever try out. Oh, have you heard about the "ethics" of America's Army? The army want recruits who will kill without hesitation when nessecary... what do you do in Counterstrike et. al?

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I agree with invictius somewhat, I prefer fps games with a somewhat paranormal plot to it. If the game doesn't have monsters, demons, mutants, or something of that nature, I'm usually not interested. A perfect example, the Goldeneye games, I can give a rats ass about them.

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invictius said:

I don't really like newer FPS'. Not sure why, maybe the fact that they revolve more on killing human beings?


Maybe you tried the wrong games? I also prefer battling it out against all kinds of monsters, demons and zombies. Realistic settings and enemies are in most cases boring for me.

Have you played Doom 3, Quake 4, Painkiller, Area 51, Starship Troopers, Gene Troopers? I´m not saying they are all great (some of them are), but they all revolve about fighting against non-human monsters.

The one thing I miss in so many newer FPS is the absence of more open, non-linear level designs. Many newer FPS are extremely linear, where you can only take one direction all the time, no exploration, no free roaming, no secrets, sometimes even no sidetracking. That´s something newer designers forgot how to do right.

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Hmmmm, I do like some of the new-generation FPS, it's just that they're nowhere near as fun as DOOM.

I think that's mainly because it's all so serious in those games. Enemies have to be efficient, smart and their graphics have to be state-of-the-art. In DOOM the monsters are simple as Hell and that's what makes them funny. On the other hand, in great numbers they really do pose a challenge.

DOOM rules.

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I think this classic post by Taylor will elucidate you on the topic.

(BTW, I found the same rant posted somewhere on everything2 under another username).

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Modern FPS games lack innovation and/or atmosphere.
For example: I liked Doom3 atmosphere a lot. I loved it. Compared to Quake 4 it's a masterpiece. But Doom3 is just boring, after a few hours. But it's remarkable how it can keep you playing for those several hours before. Only the biggest fans will ever get through Doom3 IMhO.

Speaking of modern innovative FPS games, that give you something more than killing: Thief series and System Shock series. Since these games came out, I haven't seen anything as interesting and smart.

With Doom, if you're determined, you can do (or emulate) almost everything. The most popular WADs, or maybe the ones that are acclaimed best, are those innovative.

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ellmo said:
With Doom, if you're determined, you can do (or emulate) almost everything. The most popular WADs, or maybe the ones that are acclaimed best, are those innovative.

DOOM is shit for emulation, and other games (like Quake, Unreal and Half-life) can be used as an "innovative" base as effectively as, or more than, DOOM and its clones or offshoots. The best wads are "best" for being superb in their type, where innovation is only a part and an aim for only some people. Wads like Alien Vendetta that kick major ass aren't particularly "innovative," and TCs are hardly considered "best" by everyone.

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invictius said:

Oh, have you heard about the "ethics" of America's Army? The army want recruits who will kill without hesitation when nessecary... what do you do in Counterstrike et. al?

Well Christ I would hope that the soldiers in my nation's army are willing to kill the enemy without hesitation. What sort of retarded soldier is it who gets the enemy in his sights and then his finger hovers over the trigger while he thinks "wait do I really want to take a life??" then he gets blown up by a grenade.

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Linguica said:
What sort of retarded soldier is it who gets the enemy in his sights and then his finger hovers over the trigger while he thinks "wait do I really want to take a life??" then he gets blown up by a grenade.

Well, maybe he meant someone like the DOOM marine who beat the living shit out of his commander for telling him to shoot civilians.

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You know, we weren't told in the "good ol' Doom story" if the officer he assaulted had been right or wrong. I always wondered* if the rest of the unit got gunned down when the civilians he'd been ordered to attack did in fact turn out to be heavily armed and out for blood.

________
* Actually I'm lying - I never gave the story even a second's thought.

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I like the thousands of pwads - thats why I like new games less, but the unreal spaceship levels were pretty cool.

Linguiqa: Of course you'd want troops like that, it's just the way of recruiting - incluence ppl playing counterstrike etc that they can do it for real - its free, and they encourage you to distridute it. I don't blame the U.S seeking revenge out of 9/11, I think any country would if such a thing hapened there. But, I think the real thread is north korea. They boast about not letting up on their nuke program, but the u.s has their hands a bit tied - seoul is only 70 km from their border, and could be flattened in minutes. The leader has the world's largest collection of daffy duck comics, has servants inspect EACH grain of his rice for inspection, kidnaps movie stars to make propaganda films...

Pregnant women and bikes are banned in the capital. You have to wear a badge of the leader. Food aid doesn't get to the people that need it, and they have the 5th largest army in the world - 1/3 of their GDP. Concentration camps - if you say anything even slightly wrong, your whole family is sent there. They beat newborn babies for god's sake. There was a 3 year period of mourning when the old leader died, and he is the "eternal president", and all tourists have to lay flowers at his statue, not to mention that you only go where the govt lets you, and your minded 24/7.

There are a million troops stationed along this line between north and south, they just stare at each other all day. A guy from the UN tried to trim a bush in the demilitarized zone, and was hacked to bits by n koreans. Every year is counted from when the "eternal president" was born on some mystical mountain. Only one tv and radio station of course, with stories from happy workers and the like.

rant mode off. Forget iraq, nuke pyongyang, only government elites are allwoed to live there, anyway...

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Grazza said:
You know, we weren't told in the "good ol' Doom story" if the officer he assaulted had been right or wrong. I always wondered* if the rest of the unit got gunned down when the civilians he'd been ordered to attack did in fact turn out to be heavily armed and out for blood.

Hah, that's what the UAC and the military wanted you to believe, to keep you, marine, quiet and "out of trouble"!

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I don't loose any sleep at night from taking (read killing) a pawn in chess. The Doom enemies are just game figures and conventions. Sure I get immersed when I'm playing, then I stop and walk away.

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Doom is addictive modern shooters are not I just get bored after a few hours.
Well thats whats happening to me all the time, I gave up on playing doom3.
Same thing happend with any other shooter, doom3 RoE, Far cry,Call of Duty2, all very nice games but boring after a while.
I have Battlefield 2 lying here guess what never installed it.

Doom just keeps being fun, weird all these nice games and I never bother to play them.

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myk said:

Wads like Alien Vendetta that kick major ass aren't particularly "innovative," and TCs are hardly considered "best" by everyone.

"Kick Major Ass"? More like "Boring as all hell".

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Scuba Steve said:
More like "Boring as all hell".

No one gets bored in Hell. You just wait and see.

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ellmo said:

Only the biggest fans will ever get through Doom3 IMhO.


I got through it purely as a sense of duty and a desire to see the ending (which was meh!). I got bored, frustrated and totally pissed off in the first third or so of the game - and that continued to the end.

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Hell, I'd like to see more FPS's where you kill innocent people. I want to people able to gib babies, pregnant women, children, old people, animals, etc. I would never harm a human or animal (especially an animal) in real life, but I love doing it in video games, because no one gets hurt.

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myk said:

DOOM is shit for emulation, and other games (like Quake, Unreal and Half-life) can be used as an "innovative" base as effectively as, or more than, DOOM and its clones or offshoots.

Then I don't really see a point for you to hang around these forums if this game is so retarded and can't surprise someone as open minded as you anymore.
I'm pretty sure you could let your skills go in Assembler. Hell - you can do _anything_ with assembler...

Enjay said:

I got through it purely as a sense of duty and a desire to see the ending (which was meh!). I got bored, frustrated and totally pissed off in the first third or so of the game - and that continued to the end.

Exactly...
Enjay finished Doom3 => Enjay is a big Doom fan.

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ellmo said:
Then I don't really see a point for you to hang around these forums if this game is so retarded and can't surprise someone as open minded as you anymore.

So not being a good "emulator" and the fact that other FPS are as good as or better than DOOM for making mods makes it "retarded"?

I would indeed be out of place here if I were to like the game for what it isn't, ignoring truly relevant qualities.

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Enjay said:
I got bored, frustrated and totally pissed off in the first third or so of the game - and that continued to the end.

I can see how any person would get bored of the first third (Before Delta Labs), even I consider it weak because you have a starter set of weapons and all you fight is basically imps, zombies, spiders and z-secs; the only way they could make it interesting (which it really isn't) is to have them pop out of closets and corners.
However, with minor rant aside, imo Doom 3 shines in the last stages of the game starting at the Hell level. The level itself is my favorite level in a Doom game, and beyond that, you have all the great weapons and you are fighting the better monsters, i.e. the arch-vile, cacodemon, hell knight, but I wish there was a lot more of these monsters; the expansion pretty much follows the same path with the exception of the hunters.

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DeumReaper said:

The level itself is my favorite level in a Doom game, and beyond that, you have all the great weapons and you are fighting the better monsters, i.e. the arch-vile, cacodemon, hell knight


I didn't find the gameplay particularly improved in the hell levels. Still the same old same old of things teleporting in in front and behind me. Sure there were a few more hell knights, but there were still plenty of imp-like creatures, albeit they were a bit scorched looking. :) Cacodemons were in the game from quite early on as I recall, but I could be wrong.

Hell did look quite impressive and I certainly had a few "Ahhh, so that what the SKSNAKE textures (etc) were really supposed to look like" moments. There were also a few "wow, the engine is doing impressive things now" which is fine, but doesn't add to gameplay.

There was also that stupid boss battle with the guardian spirits or whatever was going on there. And with all that lava and hot, glowing stuff going around, it was still bloody dark!

Some of the levels when you got back to mars were a bit more reasonable than the early ones. They had the challenging monsters and a reasonable layout. However, they were still grey, gloomy and repetitive. Only one bit stands out in my mind from that section (though exactly where it is I have no idea) because it was a perfect modern engine recreation of a Doom1-style computer/tech room. The texture/model use perfectly emulated some of the old comp and tek textures from Doom 1. The level itself was still nothing great, but the look was interesting. I really had stopped caring by that stage. The game and the story was so forced and unengaging that Betruger could have run on to my screen and done the dick-dance with the cyberdemon rather than me have a final battle with it and I couldn't have cared less. Like I said, by the end, it was nothing more than a sense of duty that kept me going.

Damn, and it's been so long since I ranted about Doom3. I thought I'd got over doing that. :|

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Tetzlaff said:

Maybe you tried the wrong games? I also prefer battling it out against all kinds of monsters, demons and zombies. Realistic settings and enemies are in most cases boring for me.

Have you played Doom 3, Quake 4, Painkiller, Area 51, Starship Troopers, Gene Troopers? I´m not saying they are all great (some of them are), but they all revolve about fighting against non-human monsters.


Have you ever tried Serious Sam? I think that is a quite good and funny game (but a little bit buggy, unfortunately). It's colorful, fast and not too easy.

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Tetzlaff said:

Maybe you tried the wrong games? I also prefer battling it out against all kinds of monsters, demons and zombies. Realistic settings and enemies are in most cases boring for me.

Have you played Doom 3, Quake 4, Painkiller, Area 51, Starship Troopers, Gene Troopers? I´m not saying they are all great (some of them are), but they all revolve about fighting against non-human monsters.

The one thing I miss in so many newer FPS is the absence of more open, non-linear level designs. Many newer FPS are extremely linear, where you can only take one direction all the time, no exploration, no free roaming, no secrets, sometimes even no sidetracking. That´s something newer designers forgot how to do right.


Doom 3: Kept thinking "when am I going to see some action?". Quake 4: Ditched it when it crashed to the desktop, leaving my windows etc etc bright, which could only be fixed by a restart - also all this "find xxx" mission stuff, where you're running around in circles... Starship/Gene Troopers, haven't tried... Area 51, interesting, my hardware doesn't seem to be up to it (anything that doesn't run at 1280x1024, 2xAA, at 60 fps isn't worth playing :P j/k) might give it another go... Painkiller was almost like a FPS street fighter... fight one set of enemies, then another set come up, at infinitum...

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invictius said:

Painkiller was almost like a FPS street fighter... fight one set of enemies, then another set come up, at infinitum...


I think DOOM 2 had the same purpose -- pit you against hordes of demons...as hell revealed etc.

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baronofhell said:

If the game doesn't have monsters, demons, mutants, or something of that nature, I'm usually not interested.


I'm like the total opposite of that. I thought the zombie/mutant shit killed Return to Castle Wolfenstein: Tides of War (Although i do admit that at least they were relevant to the game's story) and Far Cry: Instincts.

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