What enemy kills you the most?

[JonTTu111]

dutch devil said:

Hitscanners and revenants.

What is hitscanner?

[deathbringer]

The bullet-shooting enemies, ie the Former Human, Shotgun Guy, Chaingun guy and Spider Mastermind. Its called "Hitscan" because the bullet shooting weapons do not actually "fire a bullet", they draw an invisible line from the shooter to a wall and then 'scan' along the line for anything shootable thats in the way, and make blood come out of the first thing and do damage to it

Anyway, for me its usually Chaingunners, Revenants (especially when overused, a while back 'lots of revenants' was often confused with 'good map design', but i think we're over it now) and Cyberdemons in confined spaces. Also nightmare combinations like distant chaingun snipers (that you fire at with the R/L) and lost souls (that suddenly appear in front of you just as you fire the rocket)

[NightmareZer0]

Ichor said:

Those pesky blue keys get me every time.

Pfft. Red keys are SO much harder.

[Kennychan]

Usually, I always kill Imps, Demons, Lost Soul , Cacodemon, Revanent and AV in Doom 2 and TNT

[Soap on a Rope]

It took me a moment to realize "AV" was referring to Archvile, not Alien Vendetta. :/

It's all about the revenants and the missiles that I never seem to evade. Especially when you don't know the revenants are even there.

[redmage125]

Armor bonus. They won't leave me alone!

[printz]

Imp said:

[something about blue keys]
Pfft. Red keys are SO much harder.

Really? Statistics? Worse ambushes? Too bad I always forget what key I am picking (unless Heretic'ing.)

[Nautilus]

Chaingunners and arachnotrons.

[Iori Branford]

Shotgunner, chaingunner, and revenant. No contest. All hit fucking hard, all outnumber the more powerful monsters.

[Maes]

Revenants and hitscanners.

Revenants are actually quite a pain in the ass for most other monsters as well, I've seen then punching hell knights and mancubi to death without breaking a sweat, and their projectyles punish pretty badly.

I really don't know what's worse: a single Cyberdemon, or 10-15 revvies ... I think they would missile and punch the life outta Cybie as well :-S


Hiscanners...when far away they sap your health chunk by chunk, and in close range (especially chaingunners and sergeants) they're just cruel.

[Ismaele]

Maes said:

I really don't know what's worse: a single Cyberdemon, or 10-15 revvies ... I think they would missile and punch the life outta Cybie as well :-S

I really hate groups of Revenants! :[ I stopped playing "Scythe 2" when I encountered an outrageous number of Revenants in one of the last levels, so that I wasn't able to survive it! I prefer fighting against 2, 3... maybe even 4 CyberDemons at the same time!!

[Mivalekan]

Chaingunners, only because people like to put them in cheesy traps.

I only have a problem with huge groups of revenants when I don't have a plasma rifle.

[Jodwin]

Chaingunners and manci. Also archies and cybers in some g*y maps where they are, more or less intentionally, placed in hopeless places.

Revenants are rarely *that* bad, it's only the HR-style masses of revvies which really kill me, and even then they are easy to dispose of with the RL if you've got the space (like in Xexis).

[Rotting Corpse]

Arch-viles. Not because they are hard to take down. Its that mappers tend to thorw them in a big room with a crap load of Zomibes and Imps thinking that the lesser domons wont be that hard to take down.

Every one knows that a group of Chaingunners or Shotgunner can be just as hard as 4 or 5 Cyberdemon's.

[Ismaele]

Rotting Corpse said:

Every one knows that a group of Chaingunners or Shotgunner can be just as hard as 4 or 5 Cyberdemon's.

I think you are exaggerating! :P

[falcondelta]

Pinkies. Mainly because when I start E3 in doom 1 I dont have any ammo so I end up trying to fist fight my way out of 3 of them.

[alexz721]

Soap on a Rope said:

It took me a moment to realize "AV" was referring to Archvile, not Alien Vendetta. :/

Sadly enough, you weren't the only one.

[sundar]

Maes said:

Revenants and hitscanners.

Revenants are actually quite a pain in the ass for most other monsters as well, I've seen then punching hell knights and mancubi to death without breaking a sweat, and their projectyles punish pretty badly.

I really don't know what's worse: a single Cyberdemon, or 10-15 revvies ... I think they would missile and punch the life outta Cybie as well :-S


Hiscanners...when far away they sap your health chunk by chunk, and in close range (especially chaingunners and sergeants) they're just cruel.

Revenants rarely survive a one on one fight against a Hell Knight at close range. If a Revenant does win, it means the Knight is either injured or stuck or is targetting the player or another monster. However from a distance it is 50/50. The Revenant moves faster, has better accuracy and his fireballs do more damage whereas the Knight is slower and his plasma does lesser damage and isn't as accurate. It all depends on how frequently the Revenant uses his homing missiles. In fact I've even seen a Revenant wasting a Baron in such a situation. Although that is quite rare. If Fast Monsters is turned on, the Knight has a higher chance of winning though.

The Revenant actually stands a higher chance of winning against a Mancubus than against a Knight. Apart from the conditions that I mentioned above of which at least one is required for a Revenant to beat a Hell Knight at close range, there is one more possibility. The Mancubus doesn't have a melee attack so he will take short intervals between attacks, unless fast monsters is enabled. From a distance, it depends. If they're aren't very far away, the Mancubus will win. But if they're quite far, the Revenant wins most of the time. This is because each time a Mancubus shoots, he shoots a total of 8 fireballs in three waves in the order 3-3-2. But since they follow a diverging path, only one of them is likely to hit the Revenant. The Revenant on the other hand has better accuracy and the Mancubus moves really slow. So the Revenant wins if they're fighting from a long distance, even if Fast Monsters is enabled.

It takes around 10 barons or maybe even more to waste a Cybie so 15 revenants definitely can't waste a Cybie.

Coming back to the topic, I have no problems with the more advanced enemies but I hate the so called Hitscanners because you just can't see them coming. It is possible to strafe all other types of Projectiles(yes, even Revenant projectiles) but these guys are just annoying, especially shotgunners and chaingunners. The most frustrating moments in Doom2 maps were when I had the SSG equipped and I missed a chaingunner and he mowed me down by the time the SSG reloaded.

[Maes]

I was playing Xexis.wad yesterday, and again I saw a revenant punching to death not 1, but 2 hell knights in succession (FIY, it was in the room just before (or soon after, I don't remember well) the second Blood Vile.

He took them down quite easily, and mostly with melee attacks. It seems hell knights have a quite high painchance, because the revenant just punched them, they moaned, and rarely countered its hits.

Both hell knights were relatively undamaged except maybe for a sergeant's shotgun blast and the revvie's fireball (which started the infight).

Vs manci, it's even worse: the mancubus just sits there moaning to death if the revenant is in melee range, and even when there's some distance, the revvie rarely misses (and most of the time it stops the mancubus' attacks cold).

I always thought revenants are quite overpowered not only vs the player (deadly accuracy, heavy damage, and can survive 1-2 rocket blasts in typical conditions) but also vs most other monsters of their "class".

A Baron of hell surely won't die to a single revvie, but he will suffer heavy damage in case of a melee (and yes, I've seen revvies killing undamaged barons of hell too in melee, again because the baron's didn't fight back often enough and just moaned in pain.)

[Craigs]

Zombiemen. I feel so sorry for them I just let them kill me to make them feel good about themselves. :(

[sundar]

Strange really. I agree that a Revenant can really be a real pain in the ass for most enemies but nine out of ten times a Revenant faces a Hell Knight/Mancubus, he loses. The Mancubus as I mentioned doesn't have a melee attack so it's understandable why he "moans" instead of retaliating but the Hell Knight almost always wins at close range. Let alone Barons. But you may be right, who knows. Everything is a probability.

BTW which source port do you use? That also affects monster behaviour upto certain limit.

[Maes]

I'm currently using GZDoom, but I observed the same behavior in ZDoomGL and ZDoom as well, so it's probably tied to the way ZDoom handles melee and painchances.

What I saw most of the time, was that Hell Knights took multiple melee hits from the Revvies without striking back as often.

Barons were of course more robust, but they won infights after letting revvies punch most of their life right out of them.

High damage? Faster attacks? Lower painchance? Whatever the reason, Revvies are the #1 bastards in my book :-)

[sundar]

I use GZDoom too. I tried summoning a Knight and a Revvie yesterday at close range and the Knight won. And he also put up a fight against the second Revvie, but the second Revenant killed him.

Then I restarted the map and tried summoning a Baron and Revvie. The Baron killed 3 revenants and survived a few hits from the fourth Revenant before dying.

I think Barons, Knights and Archviles have the lowest pain chances among non-bosses. Revenants, Cacos, Elementals, Mancis, Arachnotrons, Demons, Spectres and Lost Souls are all defenceless against rapid fire. This is why all of them can be killed by chaingunners sometimes, even though they have way more hit points. Whereas Barons, Knights and Archies can and do retaliate.

[XXoXX]

Maes said:

I'm currently using GZDoom, but I observed the same behavior in ZDoomGL and ZDoom as well, so it's probably tied to the way ZDoom handles melee and painchances.

What I saw most of the time, was that Hell Knights took multiple melee hits from the Revvies without striking back as often.

Barons were of course more robust, but they won infights after letting revvies punch most of their life right out of them.

High damage? Faster attacks? Lower painchance? Whatever the reason, Revvies are the #1 bastards in my book :-)

You sure? I have to agree with sundar that Hell Knights and Barons have way lower painchance than any other monsters. (ok, maybe except for cybies but that's a different matter) In fact, revenants have a relatively high painchance. You can take one out via machinegun without it firing a shot. Whereas you get screwed if you try the same trick on Knights or Barons. I use ZDoom too so I can't see why your revenants can be different. Fast monsters perhaps?

[Maes]

XXoXX said:

You sure? I have to agree with sundar that Hell Knights and Barons have way lower painchance than any other monsters. (ok, maybe except for cybies but that's a different matter) In fact, revenants have a relatively high painchance. You can take one out via machinegun without it firing a shot. Whereas you get screwed if you try the same trick on Knights or Barons. I use ZDoom too so I can't see why your revenants can be different. Fast monsters perhaps?

Yup, 100% positive about "my" revvies. If I was required to be more precise, I'd say Knight and Revvies are roughly equally powered (although not terms in HP), and it's even money who will prevail over who. Most often, the slightly higher moving speed of the revvie seems to give him an edge...also, I'm always playing on UV, if that can make any difference.

So there you have it: a monster roughly as powerful as a hell knight, surely more powerful than a cacodemon, and able to pwn a mancubus with ease, slapped around in IWADS and PWADS in much more generous numbers that either cacos or hell knights. And don't forget...the revenant rarely misses a ranged attack vs other monsters ;-)

[Muscle Chris]

revenants, with those worthless homing missiles that follow you around corners and thru mazes, screw those

[sundar]

Hell Knights are basically Barons with half the HP. Read about the Barons on wikipeida/Doom wiki to find out why the Knights were actually created.

First of all, if you really want to get accurate results play a map with "no monsters" turned on and then spawn monsters and let them fight each other. You can't trust the infights during combat. Each monster has its own behaviour and there are 8 different situations you'll have to try before concluding:

NORMAL- Close range(Melee)
Mid range(close but not close enough for melee/few mts away)
Long range1(one or both monsters hav limited space,cant move)
Long range2(both can move around freely)

FAST MONSTERS - SAME 4 cases as above

I've tried all these things before and based on this, I think this is how monsters rank as far as infighting goes:

1. Cyber
2. Baron
3. Arachnotron
4. Archvile/Manci/Revenant/Knight

The Spider Mastermind unfortunately cannot be considered because his accuracy and power decreases with distance but if he is to be ranked, he'll be second.

Monsters do not retaliate Archvile attacks so for archie infights, you MUST summon monsters. Tht is, if Archie is friendly and the monster is not, it will retaliate, and vice versa.

[nategorga]

Barrels. Really, Either I hit it and I die, or something ELSE hits it and I die.

[Hellbaron]

I'll go with Hitscanners too. Or maybe Revenants in large groups.

[Bigbadtexan]

I'd have to say arch-viles or cyberdemons