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Israel invades Lebanon

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@xdelusion: "White" is simply a misguided term used by people to generalize. Race is nothing more than a social construct based on a varying array of loosly defined physical traits. Race and "white" and "black" aren't genetic properties; skin tone is but there are some people of East-Asian descent, for example, who are whiter than me (i'm what the general populace would refer to as "white"), and they wouldn't be called "white" would they? Perhaps due to hair type or facial features maybe? But all that is just physical traits loosely grouped into a socially defined pseudotrait that only exists in our heads.

@fodders: A lot of people are looking for a war right now. The Palestinians want one. The Israelis want one. The Americans want one. A lot of countries are looking for war, or ways to settle these problems through violence. It's a null point because they aren't warmongering any more than any other nation out there. If you want, feel free to blame everyone, but remember, war isn't something a country can pick or choose, we live in a society based around war (as of now) and one group can't just say "we don't want it" in this day and age. (Once, again this is a very sad fact, I do not enjoy, but it remains as the way the world is right now. It would be great if this wasn't the case. But you cannot single out one group of people when everyone else is just as at fault.)

Also, your quote on native americans, are you saying the native americans deserved to be kicked off of thier land and that we shouldn't give it back? Because you compared them to the Israelis and thats what you want for them. Needless to say I doubt America will ever go back to the native americans, but it doesn't make it right. Thier land was stolen and they don't have it back and you make it sound like thats all fine and good, and how it should be.

@bank: The Romans kicked the Jews out without any cause. Thats like being kicked out of your house by a greedy, corrupt government for no reason except that the government feels they have the right to evict citiziens whenever, and then the people coming back 50 years later when the government has fallen to take back what is truly thiers.

@alexz721: The only people bringing the holocaust into the middle east crisis are people who are against the Jews. Islamic fundamentalists and white supremists love to pull the holocaust card, not the Jews. The Jews are defending thier land, which they have a right to do. Maybe the Holocaust was just the peak of centuries of displacement and hatred against the Jewish people that had been going on since the Church first started inciting hate against them and playing off the idea that it was more the Jews' fault then the Roman's that Jesus died. Pontius Pilate ordered Jesus' death. It doesn't matter if he washed his hands of it, if I went and killed someone, I doubt washing my hands of it would hold up in court. On top of that, it is just as holy to Christians and Muslims, only because it was holy to Jews first.

Finally, I'd like to say that no one in history is somehow more at a loss than anyone else. In the end we have all been the victim and we have all been the oppresor. And also, I have nothing against the Islamic people either. I just believe that Israel belongs to the Jews. But don't get me wrong, I'm not the one pulling pity into this, its the people against Israel who love to pretend thats all the Jews do is ask for pity. And again I want to say, this is not anti-Islamic. I am not holding personal grudges (I used to, but I stopped because I realized it was stupid. I have Muslim friends, and I no longer even believe race exists outside of our heads. Religion and ethnicity, such as ancestry, do, but they should not be used as a way to divide.)

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insertwackynamehere: I know this, but I'm just saying what happened to the Brown Jews anyhow, how did they get all white?

And when I refer to the "White Race" I'm usually refering to the culture that the elite in the White Race has been known for pushing through out hisotory, and that being a culture of Elitism, Domination, and Coporate Take Overs.

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Well Jesus and the Jews of the middle east probably were more tan, and you still see that. I'd say a lot of it may be the result of marriage with people of more European background, natural change due to surroundings, and things such as that. However, there are actually still a lot of Jews who are darker, it is not uncommon, people just take it into stride, as if they just have a year round tan or something. I know a lot of people like this, I generally just see them as being tan, but when you think about it, its like "oh yeah, they are kinda olive I suppose" and they're Jewish.

I personally am half-Jewish but Russian/Eastern European, and my other half is what people call WASP (of course the "white" part is well.. heh read my last post). There were different Tribes of Israel, in Africa they found African people (very dark skinned, not Middle Eastern, but black skinned) who practiced an old form of Judaism recently. It all has to do with change, and actually not everyone did change, as I said before.

However, people still see the tanner Jews as white, even though put them in a turban and you'd suddenly see them as middle eastern. Like I said, it is a social construct.. think about who you call what color and then how much that color actually works and how in a different surrounding you might call them something else.. it can be very interesting to see how much of a population dividing lie race is.

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insertwackynamehere said:

@alexz721: The only people bringing the holocaust into the middle east crisis are people who are against the Jews. Islamic fundamentalists and white supremists love to pull the holocaust card, not the Jews. The Jews are defending thier land, which they have a right to do.

This is simply not true. I have spokjen Jewish people (who live in Israel, I might add, not just ones who live in the USA, where I reside) who bring up the Holocaust as a reason why they deserve that land. Perhaps not every Jew believes this, but enough do. They want a safe haven free from persecution. A Jewish nation. Fair enough, and I do support it. But not at this expense. It is not a lie perpetrated by extremists against the Jews. Like it or not, the land was given to them only two years after the end of World War II, and if you tell me that The Holocaust was not a heavy factor in the decision, only two years after the horrible monstrosity of it was uncovered, well, I will have to dispute you. And furthermore, it continues to be a factor now. This has nothing to do with hate. It is simply something that as far as I can tell, is a fact.

insertwackynamehere said:

Finally, I'd like to say that no one in history is somehow more at a loss than anyone else. In the end we have all been the victim and we have all been the oppresor. And also, I have nothing against the Islamic people either. I just believe that Israel belongs to the Jews. But don't get me wrong, I'm not the one pulling pity into this, its the people against Israel who love to pretend thats all the Jews do is ask for pity.

If no one is at more of a loss than any other, how can you justify favoring one over the other? You can't just believe one group deserves it over the other without a reason, especially if you adhere to this concept of equality. To me, this does not make sense. Pity has nothing to do with this.

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I believe the Jews deserve because they had it first. Its not about loss or pity, it's thiers.

Also at the end of world war 2, the Jews and Muslims were promised Israel, and though the Jews deserved it, in my opinion, England only promised it for thier own gain to TWO parties which is why this happened in the first place.

Also, there are plenty of muslim people who live in the middle east who believe blowing themselves up is the way to Heaven. So am I supposed to assume that all Muslims think this?

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The Jews had it first? I'm pretty sure, if I recall my Old Testament history correctly, that King Saul and later King David slaughtered a bunch of guys in a "sacred war" to get it. I mean, how far back do you want to go to establish ownership? This seems to be a case of "finders keepers," since it is not where the Jews originated.

So once again, I ask you, why do the Jews deserve Israel? As I said, I feel that your argument that "they had it first" is a bit flawed. You also mentioned that they had to wander for centuries. Well, fine, but of course, once they found the place they wanted, war ensued. I don't care if they called it holy first. Religion and land do not go hand in hand. Every claim, both Jewish and Muslim, to me is purely religious and even more importantly, outdated.

As for your suicide bomber quip, it's a poor analogy. Yes, they are small minority of the Muslim population, but blowing yourself up in the name of God to kill an infidel is quite different from using a faulty reason to claim territory. Those guys don't even understand why they are killing themselves, other than God would be pleased.

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insertwackynamehere said:

I believe the Jews deserve because they had it first. Its not about loss or pity, it's thiers.


Actually it isnt, no matter which way you look at it, they stole it from Palastine. I'm ashamed that the US helped create this monster.

I have nothing against the Jews, but I do have too many problems with Israel as an independant state.

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spank said:
Therefore, Israel wouldn't want to bite one of the hands that feeds them unless they really had something to go for.

The importance that the USA gives to Israel, as well as their support for Israel's kind of unethical means leads me to think that that country acts there as a beacon of American influence in a area that is fertile with oil.

The US has Israel on one hand and the more westernized "Islamic" countries (with the likes of Saudi Arabia in the foreground) as two half-sibling children of cultural and economic involvement (to a certain degree also respectively so; Israle provides intelligence, the Arabs raw wealth) with a game of favors between them. The objective being a fragmentation of the area into smaller dependent states, as opposed to a regional block (like Europe, or what is being attempted in South America). Thus the current US administration aims to destroy secular nationalist governments with an eye on local soveriegnty, supporting it's two initmate arms in the area (Isreal and monarchical or liberal-economist Arabia) in different ways.

insertwackynamehere said:
And what "unethical" means does Israel have? Invading a country responsible for capturing thier soldiers? Oh excuse me, I'm sorry that is wrong.

If I steal your wallet and take your two bucks, do you go over to my place and trash my car?

Going against the Jews and Israel and the Holocaust and whatever is fun, maybe to you guys, because it makes you feel cynical and different, but you are just sharing the same views as the people on stormfront.org who think that the white race is the only good race and believe everything the Jews do is what causes problems. You also bear resemblance to the disgusting, shit-ridden, mental darkness era of the middle-aged Europe who believed in things such as witchcraft and that disease wasnt causes by wallowing in your own waste like a pig, but by evil spirits. You also thought Jews were evil because they were the only people smart enough to actually make a living, and thus money suddenly became evil too and Jews were money-hoarders because they did better than you. Its a class conflict, that became a religious conflict (when the Church helped incite more hatred) and now, when that stereotype doesnt even hold true anymore in the least, it is still followed. In other words you guys are acting like ignorant idiots with stupid passed down hate. Perhaps.. perhaps the Jews are actually right and you dont have to take the other side.

No one even remotely resorted to stereotypes and retarded generalizations to the degree you just did; if you don't like bigorty, you can start by keeping it off your own discourse.

alexz721 said:
But that would require both sides to seriously compromise their core beliefs, and never underestimate the sway that foolish pride can hold over someone.

Yet these beliefs have been fed to them only recently to such an extent and degree. Zionism itself is something complex without necessarliy having stong ties to dogma and Islamic thought isn't equivalent to Jihadism, which is very recent, especially in a massive sense.

I don't think anything will change unless the US changes its political course, though, since it's been fomenting this sort of thing all along, especially since the 90s.

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Israel do a wrong thing again. It invades Lebanon without realiable reasons. Islams and Jaws have to fight together again. Many leaders of the world blame this event. UN is putting more effort to solve the problem peacefully

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@myk: People can't say this is just the Jews bitching about the Holocaust and then not face the fact that that's ignorant and untrue. Also, your analogy fails it. Stealing two bucks from my wallet is completly different than two human beings being kidnapped by a terrorist group that excersizes more control over a country than the country's own government. It's common practice, and I'm sorry but what Lebanon and Hezbollah did was an act of war. Israel invaded Lebanon because they were provoked, and they have every right. Ignore "Israel" and "Lebanon" and think about it this way.

Country A kidnaps some of Country B's soldiers. Country B invades Country A because it takes Country A's actions as an act of war.

Makes sense right? But for some reason if Israel suddenly becomes Country B, people freak out for some stupid hatred against the Israelis. If you don't want a fucking war, then tell the team your cheering for to stop inciting one.

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Kennychan said:

Islams and Jaws have to fight together again.


No way they're gonna be able to kill a shark that keeps coming back to life. Bye Islam

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insertwackynamehere, your arguments are nice and emotional, but not very logical. You say that individual terrorists have done the kidnapping, and yet you go on to ignore this completely and state that the whole country must pay for the crime.

And as Alex said, yes the jews did "steal" the so-called promised land back in the old testament days, so following you logic about ownership, it's not really theirs, now is it?

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If you mean the Philistines, they were Egyptians, and the Egyptians had oppressed the Jews as anyone who knows the story of Moses knows.

And I never said individual terrorists, but Hezbollah, a terrorist organization that has a lot of political and social ties to Lebanon. Lebanon refused to distance themselves from Hezbollah and now are paying for it. Hezbollah and Lebanon are tied very closely.

And @ralphis haha worst typo ever :P and @kennychan they had reliable reasons, two soldiers were kidnapped. It wasn't just like "lol I can't find two soldiers lets invade Lebanon now." Israel has a reliable reason.

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Job said:

It's good to finally see Jewish folks on the giving side, not the receiving end, for once.

Haha, you've obviously haven't read much of the Bible. They've been on the giving end for centuries, not counting that unfortunate exile to Babylon. Unfortunately, being "God's chosen people" tends to go along with the idea that the rest of the world is full of barbaric heathens whose slaughter in the name of God is fully justified.

By the way, I like the argument that if you're in favor of giving Israel back to the Jews, you should also be in favor of giving the US back to the Native Americans. I mean, it's the same situation, and yet no one in their right mind would ever come out in support of the second.

Finally, you know what, let's just kick back and enjoy the fireworks. Just as long as we don't get involved. With any luck, they'll all just self-destruct. I'm frickin' sick of the entire damn Middle East, and if they want bloodshed, I say fine, let them have their bloodshed. Maybe they'll do the world a favor and put themselves out of our misery. Seriously, someone needs to get those people (on both sides) some nukes. That'd clear things up real quick. I'd love to see the place go up in a great big mushroom cloud. After all, "He who lives by the sword will die by the sword."

EDIT: Oh yes, and let us not forget that the Israelites stole it from the Canaanites to begin with, so how can you say it's somehow more theirs than anyone else's? You can't always just go back and make the argument of "I had it first."

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Oh I'm sorry, please swap the words "individual terrorists" for "a group of terrorists" then: my point is exactly the same.

And please don't go throwing around your beliefs like they are facts: the Philistines were NOT Egyptians and in fact it is not entirely clear what their origins were.
Besides, I'm talking about before even that, when they were still calling the region Canaan.

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insertwackynamehere said:
[B
Country A kidnaps some of Country B's soldiers. Country B invades Country A because it takes Country A's actions as an act of war.

[/B]

It's capture not kidnap,(all the press keeps saying kidnap to make it sound worse), but they were soldiers, they have been captured, they had invaded Lebanon's space earlier, they were fair game in my opinion. Israel isn't the victim here, they have been holding onto Lebanese land for years, killing thousands in Gaza, they deserve all they get.

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Fine they were captured, it's still an act of war, as you pointed out, because they are soldiers. No one said Israel was the victim in this situation, I just said they were right.

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insertwackynamehere said:
@myk: People can't say this is just the Jews bitching about the Holocaust and then not face the fact that that's ignorant and untrue.

Heh, this crap has nothing to do with this thread, other than you bringing it in by yourself, by stating that criticizing Israel is anti-semitic, just like Cheney might say criticizing US foreign policy is unpatriotic or "being with them rather than us".

Also, your analogy fails it. Stealing two bucks from my wallet is completly different than two human beings being kidnapped by a terrorist group that excersizes more control over a country than the country's own government.

Which is what extreme Islam wants; more aggression from Israel (the despised dogs) to raise the hatred against Israel and rally greater forces from the troubled Arab/Persian populance, disrupting more moderate governments and encouraging harsher ones even less friendly to Israel.

But you're right, my analogy isn't very good: smashing airports, bombing residential areas, and energy sources while blockading the area as a response to taking two soldiers used as a demand for an exchange for activists and fighters taken by Israel is more like smashing my car, wrecking my bed, and cutting out my electricity, for the two bucks.

If you don't want a fucking war, then tell the team your cheering for to stop inciting one.

This is a pretty crass comment, to say the least, to treat this as some kind of sports game. It's you who's doing it, and merely due to your claimed Jewish descent. Who are you to stand on a podium and claim to be Israel's voice? I've Jewish friends even with relatives in Israel who are quite sensible, and I don't personally see this as beneficial to Israel, or the people in Israel.

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insertwackynamehere said:

Fine they were captured, it's still an act of war, as you pointed out, because they are soldiers. No one said Israel was the victim in this situation, I just said they were right.

To play Devil's Advocate for a moment, I might point out that Israel has a ton of civilians held hostage as well, but I've heard nary a mention of them. In fact, that's the reason those Israeli soldiers were captured, to negotiate the return of said hostages. Of course, I don't condone such Machiavellian tactics (two wrongs don't make a right, etc.), but all I'll simply say, is that there is no good guy in this fight, and anyone who argues for one side or the other is failing to see the whole picture.

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Meh, Territory is just a word we made up to pretend that the earth is not everyone's and that certain people are more deserving than others.

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Silly to see such loads of support to the Israel point of view... However as some has described before me, I must also say that religion is not something that makes them have right in this war or that they ever deserved Israel at all.. jews may have been opressed etc, But the fact still remains, you cant hold a whole large group as opressed just because many are, or if "some" are.. some jews continue to be opressed even today yes, But it won't make jews any better. To me it seems like many jews moans as soon as they are picked on, because their fathers, mothers or whatever were kidnapped, killed, harassed during world war 2 even though themselves newer were! In my opinion, as well as many others, they will have to live together, both of them. And not think of themselves as an opressed group or a group at all but together. Cause if they choose to moan (either of them) then they'll become opressed, either by themselves or by others. It's a choice we all have.

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can't we just draw a single blue line around the lot and call it Israelistine?

Seriously

Over here in the EU we might not like each other very much, rely on stereotypes to poke fun at each other and get into arguments about invading other people's countries (see: UK pro Iraq war / France anti). But we don't blow the shit out of each other any more. Sure the "century long" war of the 20th century was hardcore but remember, we're talking about a civilisation that began forming, coalecing, in the roman era. The mid east does have ancient roots and civilisations but it was us lot that forked it over in the first place, disolved the ottoman empire, tried to take afghanistan for ourselves (valuable trade routes to india and china, basically). we only just started giving it all back in the 20th century. (Indeed, this also applies to India vs Pakistan)

So in terms of scale, Europe (and it's more succesfully established colonies) has had 2 milleniums to sort it self out, build stability and get to where we are now, sure beuracracy is a serious pain in the ass but at least we dont get bombed and shot at daily by our neighbours. On the other hand the current Israel vs Palestine conflict's roots are only 50 years old, 1963. 50 years, that's sod all compared to 2000 years.


(apologies for my appaling speeling)

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The pro-israel stance held by many people is no surprise if you look at the reporting of the situation by mainstream western news sources.

When the IDF takes prisoners, they are "detained" but should palestine do the same the act is branded "kidnapping". There's clearly a conflict here, and these are soldiers being taken hostage - a risk of the job - so I think prisoners of war would be a preferably neutral term. Even those mitigated words don't have the innocuous calm of "detain".

Then there's the "terror-" words. Should be fucking abandoned in my opinion - they've acquired too much of an emotional payload post 9/11 and, to a much smaller extent anywhere other than England, 7/7. The stronger stink of immorality that they have, the appeal to emotion that they make and this appeal's accompanying power to weaken critical thinking make them a too easy tool for delineating opponents and slipping past thoughts and actions that presented in isolation might seem far more controversial.

It also seems that should an atrocity be committed on a corporate, military scale it's an act of war and treated less critically amongst conflict. When committed by a fractured and less militarily potent non-governmental group it's a "terrorist act" regardless of there being a conflict involving both sides, as we're now seeing.

Mai lai, haditha? Oh no, not those. How about the deliberate Israeli targeting of vital infrastructure like water and electricity, the terrifying sonic booms? All of these flagrantly contravene numerous parts of the Geneva Conventions, most conspicuously part 33 of the Fourth Convention. The Fourth Convention that, ironically, was signed following the absolute horror of the holocaust. These are acts of war - no, even less dishonourable than that, acts of defence. IDF indeed.

Anti-Semite is another of these powerful words, suppressing critical thinking and in this particular case being used to halt dissent, to foreclose critical debate. Critical debate which amounts to free speech. Which amounts to, in theory at least, democracy. Yet when this magic wand of denigration is waved, the dialogue falls silent.

It's a horrible situation. Violence doesn't seem to solve anything. The only resolution violence can bring is total domination of the weaker side which is admittedly at least a conclusion, but one that is hard to see as anything positive. But once the first blows are struck are there really any effective alternatives other than to respond in kind?


p.s: hi everyone.

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indeed, had a militant group targetted an Israeli Power station, leaving 1.3 million people without clean water, the means to pump sewage and of course: electricity would that be considered:

1. A proportional response to the detention of a single soldier?

2. A tactical act of war, but maybe a little over the top, considering?

3. An act of terrorism?

one suspects the latter, unfortunately.

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insertwackynamehere said:

two soldiers were kidnapped. It wasn't just like "lol I can't find two soldiers lets invade Lebanon now." Israel has a reliable reason.

Reliable reason? Like, they provide a reason which is complete nonsense and rely on like-minded zealots to believe it, regardless of what the truth might be? Oh, okay then, they certainly have a few of those.

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