risen3d licencing discussion

[LexiMax]

Brad_tilf said:

Or, you could make your point without being a complete dick. You catch more flies with honey than vinegar as they say and until you can learn to explain yourself without attacking people then they aren't going to listen to you no matter what you say.

*looks at watch*

Done derailing the thread yet? There are other people who have replied to this thread with an explination, yet you insist on continuing to drive this retarded point into the ground instead of attempting to figure out the question you supposedly were sent here to address. You wonder why I'm half-trolling you, and I'll go ahead and tell you, it's because you're either devoid of reading comprehension skills, being evasive, or possibly probably both.

[andrewj]

sitters said: (Regarding r3dglbsp source)
It is included by the bins of r3dglbsp

No it isn't. It is not in the "Risen3D v2.1.0" package, and it is not in the "latest service release", and there is no separate package for r3dglbsp.

Maybe I missed it, in which case please tell me the package it is in and the location within that package (when installed).

[sitters]

Ajapted said:

No it isn't. It is not in the "Risen3D v2.1.0" package, and it is not in the "latest service release", and there is no separate package for r3dglbsp.

Maybe I missed it, in which case please tell me the package it is in and the location within that package (when installed).

The source is ask and I sent it, maybe it must still be done.

I only know I sent it, for attach it by the package.

[Brad_tilf]

AlexMax said:

*looks at watch*

Done derailing the thread yet? There are other people who have replied to this thread with an explination, yet you insist on continuing to drive this retarded point into the ground instead of attempting to figure out the question you supposedly were sent here to address. You wonder why I'm half-trolling you, and I'll go ahead and tell you, it's because you're either devoid of reading comprehension skills, being evasive, or possibly probably both.

I understand quite well that there are issues that need to be resolved concerning the source code and its release. You have yet to tell me how that has any bearing on my or anyone, me or someone else, making the actual program available for download so people can play the maps designed for it.

[fraggle]

Brad_tilf said:

I understand quite well that there are issues that need to be resolved concerning the source code and its release. You have yet to tell me how that has any bearing on my or anyone, me or someone else, making the actual program available for download so people can play the maps designed for it.

If you do not provide the source code for download alongside it, you are forbidden under copyright law from distributing the binary. You are infringing upon the copyright of the JDoom authors by doing so.

The whole point of the GPL is that it makes things fair. Look at prboom-plus and Chocolate Doom. I can "steal" any code that entryway cares to write for his port to use in my port, but I am only allowed to use it on the condition that I release my source code as well. As a result, he can "steal" anything he wants back from me. It's tit for tat. We programmers get useful code from other people and can release our code without getting screwed.

Risen3D breaks that fairness. The author has taken the JDoom source and the hard work of all the JDoom authors and made his own improved version. This makes it more attractive to players because it has all the features of Doomsday and more, leaving them at a disadvantage. This is exactly the situation that the GPL is designed to protect against.

In the end, it comes down to whether you actually care about the authors of the source ports that you use. By continuing to distribute Risen3D, you're screwing the Doomsday developers. You're saying that all you care about is being able to play Doom with flashy graphics, and that you don't give a shit about supporting the people who actually wrote the code. This isn't just "petty bickering over stupidity" as you say on your website - it's about theft of other peoples' work.

[LexiMax]

fraggle said:

Risen3D breaks that fairness. The author has taken the JDoom source and the hard work of all the JDoom authors and made his own improved version. This makes it more attractive to players because it has all the features of Doomsday and more, leaving them at a disadvantage. This is exactly the situation that the GPL is designed to protect against

Pretty much. You know how Risen3D gives you such GREAT GRAPHICS. Well, what Graham essentially did is take the publicly avalable JDoom source and then make impvoements to it that nobody else can benefit from.

Why do people make source for a 12 year old game private anyway? I have no freaking idea, but I suspect it's so they can exert a greater amount of control over the project themselves, and by making changes that nobody else can benefit from, they hope to gain some noteriety within the community without anyone else being able to one-up them unless they essentailly reinvent the wheel.

Risen3D is dead because the author threw a hissy fit and hoped that somehow we would be made out to be the bad guys. If he had subscribed to the GPL licence of JDoom as he was legally obligated to do, someone else might have been able to continue working on Risen3D. Risen3D dying is not because of "petty bickering" on our part, it's because Graham is huge jerk.

[Quasar]

Ego and selfishness; an inflated sense of importance or superiority. Those are the only reasons to make DOOM source closed.

[Yagisan]

sitters said:

They cant handle my maps, the rendering speed is to low.
The FPS is dropping death, with much dynamic lights and models.

Other map authors that complained their maps ran "slow" with models and lights actually contacted us *with* their maps so we could use them for testing. Thanks to those authors, we've made improvements/fixes that will be in the next release - your name however is missing from the list of map authors that have spoken to us - presumably because you favoured Risen3D as your port of choice.

[sitters]

Yagisan said:

Other map authors that complained their maps ran "slow" with models and lights actually contacted us *with* their maps so we could use them for testing. Thanks to those authors, we've made improvements/fixes that will be in the next release - your name however is missing from the list of map authors that have spoken to us - presumably because you favoured Risen3D as your port of choice.

I need speed,3D floors ,slopes, 3D lines and model collision and interaction.

No port on the moment can give me that.
So it is no use to send in my maps for only speed testing.

[Yagisan]

sitters said:

I need speed,3D floors ,slopes, 3D lines and model collision and interaction.

No port on the moment can give me that.
So it is no use to send in my maps for only speed testing.

You need things that don't coincide with our wishes for doomsday then. Why don't you bash vanilla as well then - it also doesn't support slopes, 3d floors etc

[LexiMax]

sitters said:

I need speed,3D floors ,slopes, 3D lines and model collision and interaction.

No port on the moment can give me that.
So it is no use to send in my maps for only speed testing.

And so when Risen3D's author decided to pack his bags and go home, because the source is closed nobody can continue working on it, instead of it being picked up by another member of the community.

See now why open source doom ports are so important? When you placed your eggs in the closed source basket, you are at the whims of the author. If the author decides to quit, all of your work is for naught.

[sitters]

AlexMax said:

And so when Risen3D's author decided to pack his bags and go home, because the source is closed nobody can continue working on it, instead of it being picked up by another member of the community.

See now why open source doom ports are so important? When you placed your eggs in the closed source basket, you are at the whims of the author. If the author decides to quit, all of your work is for naught.

Agh who knows what the future brings.

[LexiMax]

sitters said:

Agh who knows what the future brings.

I do. I know that in the future all those long and tedious hours you spent working on your Risen3D maps are now almost for naught because it relies on an illegal source port that's going to become very hard to find...most people don't want to switch away from ZDoom even when the choices are laid out in front of them, how are you going to convince people to play your maps when you have to tell them to download an illegal source port that is getting harder to find by the day?

[sitters]

AlexMax said:

I do. I know that in the future all those long and tedious hours you spent working on your Risen3D maps are now almost for naught because it relies on an illegal source port that's going to become very hard to find...most people don't want to switch away from ZDoom even when the choices are laid out in front of them, how are you going to convince people to play your maps when you have to tell them to download an illegal source port that is getting harder to find by the day?

I make maps for fun, and when I have fun building stuff it is not for naught.

I have make maps for Half Life, Quake2, Quake 3, Unreal, Far Cry and Chaser.

Just for fun.

[kristus]

Although I never made maps because I wanted lots of people to play them (the fact that most of my maps were made for Legacy should be ample evidence), I would consider it a serious cum-shot to the face if Legacy for some reason were pulled from the net and noone could play my wads.

[chilvence]

What happened here was an overreaction to one person using his own initiative to bend a rule to his own judgement. I have no idea why, but I doubt GJ kept the lid on his source purely for selfish reasons. I'd be more inclined to believe that it was either hiding a mess that he didn't want people to see, or that he didnt want people to jump on the old rumours that the magic tricks renderer that made bloodworks playable in 3d was a tad unscrupulous in its method.

I can make a great analogy here - why does a magician never reveal his tricks? For exactly that reason, that's all they are, tricks. Once everybody knows how they work, they have nothing special to them, so there's no point in carrying on with it.

The shame here is the overwhelming immediate assumption that he just didn't want anyone to have it was enough to make him go 'fuck it, i can't be bothered with this'. If everone had just shut up and let him get on with it, hed have probably just realised that it made no difference keeping it secret vs letting everybody use it. I bet he just needed a slice of the mindless adulation going around everywhere else so that he could at least know the work had been worth it. So even though I think he was a bit rash in throwing it away, I don't blame him one bit...

Now stop gawping, move along. The ambulances will arrive soon...and you really needn't see anyway.

[myk]

chilvence said:
If everone had just shut up and let him get on with it, hed have probably just realised that it made no difference keeping it secret vs letting everybody use it.

Hindsight is always 20/20. Not to mention that your theory can be equated to him releasing the source 15 years from now. He can still do that, but the binaries won't be linked everywhere in the meantime.

What happened is that people decided that a community you can freely work in is better than the freedom of one author to disregard one of the important elements that encourage that freedom. If that means one engine going to obscurity, so be it, as it means that a space will be retained for any others to be produced in an environment that encourages transparency and sharing.

[Csonicgo]

After all this... I feel sorry for sitters. but don't be mad at us. be mad at graham.

[chilvence]

I didn't want to imply whether he was in the right or wrong, once there's a rule been made its nigh on impossible to ever re-interpret it - no matter how well or not it fits the situation. Rules are just there to protect certain things, but its impossible to make a rule with any foresight as to how people will react to it. If the rule is to wear steel toecaps and you happen to have two wooden legs, you'd be well in the right to re-interpret the rule....

But the point is, in this case, the rules that were laid out would have been detrimental to GJ's efforts - no one would have bothered with r3d once the source was out and bolted onto everything else, so how could he have brought himself to follow it? It is a catch 22.

In fact what realy grates me, is that if you dont fit in by the rules, you automatically become under attack, intstead of the infinitely more obvious path of becoming under question. There is not a rule broken without a reason, and if you can't even ask the reason, then you're just as at fault as the person who broke it. Every rule has a reason to exist, and every reason is equally fallible!

[myk]

chilvence said:
But the point is, in this case, the rules that were laid out would have been detrimental to GJ's efforts - no one would have bothered with r3d once the source was out and bolted onto everything else, so how could he have brought himself to follow it? It is a catch 22.

1) It's not clear that all this is because his engine is made up of shoddy or simple hacks, 2) the rules (if you mean the GPL) were there in the first place, on Doomsday.

In fact what realy grates me, is that if you dont fit in by the rules, you automatically become under attack, intstead of the infinitely more obvious path of becoming under question.

What a generalization; for instance, I support the "open the source or close the project" idea in regard to this project, though I decided that in the process of these discussions, with questions and answers. Similarly, this is an issue that has been going on for a long time, so you can't assume GJ has always been pictured as "guilty".

There is not a rule broken without a reason, and if you can't even ask the reason, then you're just as at fault as the person who broke it.

Certainly not; you may be faulty at diplomacy, but it wasn't you who broke the rule, and not being asked a question is no alibi for the one who broke it. Reasons are many and varied, and often actions are much more important, because they are more than mere allegations or intents.

Every rule has a reason to exist, and every reason is equally fallible!

Rules, as laws, are as good as they are applicable; they hardly have a "reason" to exist, but generate (or capture) standards by which to go. Reason is an instrument of the mind, and rules are designs associated to ways to relate.

[LexiMax]

sitters said:

Just for fun.

Well then you had your fun. Just don't expect people to be able to play the maps as they were intended anymore.

chilvence said:

But the point is, in this case, the rules that were laid out would have been detrimental to GJ's efforts - no one would have bothered with r3d once the source was out and bolted onto everything else, so how could he have brought himself to follow it? It is a catch 22.

A faulty assumption, because that's not quite how things work in the open source world. GJ could have submitted official patches to Doomsday, and he would have gotten reocognized as a valuable contributor. If doomsday had wanted the patches, they would be incorperated. If not, GJ could have legally forked off Risen3D, kept the source open and took Risen3D in his own direction.

The whole point of the GPL is credit is given where credit is due. If Graham wanted respect for his work, he would have gotten it with Doomsday or with his own legally forked project. You can't really equate projects to magic, magic is kept secret for entertainment value and mystery. As Quasar said:

Quasar said:

Ego and selfishness; an inflated sense of importance or superiority. Those are the only reasons to make DOOM source closed.

There is no reason to keep any source from an oldass game like Doom under wraps. None. Not security through obscurity, not because "the magic would be lost", no reason at all.

[Scuba Steve]

sitters said:

I need speed,3D floors ,slopes, 3D lines and model collision and interaction.

I'm not trying to sound like a GZDoom pimp, but I'm pretty sure GZDoom offers all of those. I have a crummy old Athlon 900, and it runs almost all Doom wads just fine. I had no speed issues playing any of your maps, and I have never had problems with GZDoom either. I don't really believe this "speed" issue is really a problem, if my computer can run them, then you can stretch it a bit and demand slightly higher system specs if necessary.

In fact, the only REAL problems I had with your maps were getting Risen3D to work. GZDoom would probably make your maps a cinch to play. One pk3 file could contain all model and wad data, and I wouldn't have to install 50 meg model packs, try to unzip the project into 5 different folders and run a launcher.

[Graf Zahl]

Scuba Steve said:

I'm not trying to sound like a GZDoom pimp, but I'm pretty sure GZDoom offers all of those.

Except for model collision. And decent model lighting. I know that the model code needs some redesign but unfortunately right now I don't have any time to do extensive work on GZDoom and I'd also like to wait for DECORATE custom states so that I can define a better model definition format.

And to be honest, I would have loved to see Risen3D's code. It most certainly would have given me a few ideas how to optimize things. I won't even pretend that GZDoom's renderer is perfect. Especially the 3D-floor rendering code is in some need of optimization.

In fact, the only REAL problems I had with your maps were getting Risen3D to work.

Same here. I'll never understand how an engine can be created in a way that makes installing it properly so that everything works well such a nightmare. Trying to play Sitters's maps with an out of the box Risen3D installation I neither got models or hires textures.

[Jon]

chilvence said:

But the point is, in this case, the rules that were laid out would have been detrimental to GJ's efforts - no one would have bothered with r3d once the source was out and bolted onto everything else, so how could he have brought himself to follow it? It is a catch 22.

I don't buy that. Where's the evidence that has happened with any other port?

chilvence said:

In fact what realy grates me, is that if you dont fit in by the rules, you automatically become under attack, intstead of the infinitely more obvious path of becoming under question.

This hasn't come out of the blue. People have been requesting the source and pointing out the licencing issue for years.

[sitters]

AlexMax said:

Well then you had your fun. Just don't expect people to be able to play the maps as they were intended anymore.

Yea it was fun, maybe I start mapping for quake2 evolved.

That port is totally rebuild and looks like doom 3 and has bump mapping, per vertex lightning system, real water, etc etc etc.

Great stuff. :))

[leileilol]

sitters said:

Yea it was fun, maybe I start mapping for quake2 evolved.

That port is totally rebuild and looks like doom 3 and has bump mapping, per vertex lightning system, real water, etc etc etc.

Great stuff. :))

Too bad that has no source available either, and the authors are ego jerks

[Graf Zahl]

leileilol said:

Too bad that has no source available either, and the authors are ego jerks

Wait a minute. Q2 source is GPL only so there's absolutely nothing that may question the illegality of their actions. I'm wondering when that project is being shut down... ;)

I'd be very, very careful to do any work for such a project.

[leileilol]

one time they actually used q3 shader code from an illegal q3 source leak in 2002 and claimed it as their own

lol.

[sitters]

Graf Zahl said:

Wait a minute. Q2 source is GPL only so there's absolutely nothing that may question the illegality of their actions. I'm wondering when that project is being shut down... ;)

I'd be very, very careful to do any work for such a project.

The source from Quake2 evolved is available

http://www.quake2evolved.com/news.htm

[chilvence]

Oh dear. I'm not trying to debate whats legal and what isn't or whats right and wrong. I'm just trying to point out the obvious perspective that everyone else is avoiding because you're all so quick to defend your position in the right that the actual events don't seem to matter at all.

GJ broke the rule by working in hiding. From the start, it would have been something so simple as not having much to show, so what would be the point in uploading source. The problem here is you instantly latch on to that without using your heads. The more you bang at someones doorstep, the less likely they are to welcome you with a smile and a hello. He was probably thinking 'sod off, you can have a look when I've actually got it working how I want it. now stop pissing and moaning'.


So have I wrote the right or wrong answer or has anyone understood something here?