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Jon

risen3d licencing discussion

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fraggle said:

Doomworld has a comprehensive list of alternative source ports to use. Off the top of my head I'd recommend ZDoomGL and GZDoom as source ports that have a similar feature set to Risen3D, but that are developed by people with proper respect for the Doom community and its' contributors.

I'm a bit surprised you are recommending these ports, seeing that they are not legally redistributable due to their license situation.

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No this is not a satisfying result. What would have been a good result if he had simply released the source, as he was morally (and perhaps legally) obliged to do.

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Agreed, a satisfactory result would have to been releasing the source code. Shutting down risen3d just screams of sour grapes.

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hawkwind said:

Yes, I'm sure they will be satisfied .....


It's crazy how people can completely misunderstand every post in this thread. No one wanted to destroy the project. They just wanted what they have a right to have. This result is childish but mostly expected.

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What a pathetic mega-LOSER! :(

Even though the result is mostly expected it's still disappointing that the team reveals themselves as such idiots.

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hawkwind said:
Yes, I'm sure they will be satisfied .....

Yes, thanks. A source release properly under the GPL would have been a great thing, but this will certainly do.

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Oh, I have a great idea, let's stop working on the project and destroy the source and act like it's Doomworld's fault.

This could have been easily resolved had you simply released the source or at least made some effort at respecting the wishes of the programmers whose code you shamelessly lifted. Instead your dev team cries like bitches and say "Well, if we can't work on it, then we'll destroy our code and then NO ONE can benefit from it." Shameless and selfish, if you ask me.

See ya. Don't trip on the doorstep on your way out.

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Author of Risen3D has exposed itself as pampered child. All have offended him. All are bad, but he is good. It causes laughter. I consider the thing that happened is logically correct end.

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Risen3D homepage says:
it is Graham's intention to destroy the Risen3D source, his reasoning is if the source can not be obtained through patience then it should never be obtained under threat.

Wow, what a waste. Seriously, what is there to lose from releasing the source? Instead of regaining respect by doing the right thing, you're going to continue being completely belligerent and throw it all away? Utterly pointless.

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This is stupid. I blew up at the Risen3D guy(s) on Newdoom over killing the project and destroying the code. Note that at that point I'd only read the explanation given on the page, which doesn't even mention the issues with licensing. Now I'm with you guys in thinking they have something ugly to hide.

They're still being idiots for nuking the code instead of just admitting their folly and releasing it.

Now I see where the talk of getting Raven's code GPLed came from. Hopefully something good will happen there because it would solve a lot of stuff.

So now what about deep's code? He's not going to be any more eager to release his code.

I'm off to go correct my posts at Newdoom to reflect the discussion about licensing here. No more Risen3D team hiding that part from people!

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DooMAD said:

Wow, what a waste. Seriously, what is there to lose from releasing the source? Instead of regaining respect by doing the right thing, you're going to continue being completely belligerent and throw it all away? Utterly pointless.

If they broke the law in what sources they've used, they had plenty to lose.

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Aliotroph? said:

So now what about deep's code? He's not going to be any more eager to release his code.

It would be in deep's interests to keep Risen3D going, otherwise there's not much point in people having his R3Dedit program. Hopefully he can show more maturity than the Risen3D developers and release whatever relevant code he has.

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DooMAD said:

It would be in deep's interests to keep Risen3D going, otherwise there's not much point in people having his R3Dedit program. Hopefully he can show more maturity than the Risen3D developers and release whatever relevant code he has.

Deep IS one of the Risen3D developers, his R3Dedit - it is Risen3D code, which of course comes from Doomsday. So Deep - where is the source (including the modified version of glbsp that comes with it).

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http://risen3d.newdoom.com/
I regret to inform the public that the Risen3D project is terminated as from now, due to so much bad feeling generated in not including the source with the v2.1.0 beta release. I suppose if you don't play by the community rules then you can expect to die by the community rules, the die is cast and there is no way back from here.

The ill will is because you have never included the source to any release - and that includes your bundled glbsp. No one asked for you to terminate your project - that is your choice. You need only to release the source

http://risen3d.newdoom.com/
We have enjoyed working on Risen3D but like all things in life, nothing lasts forever :)

The Risen3D team was not a singular entity, the team was comprised of four members, the majority of the team did however want the source released. From a legal perspective Risen3D was quiet LEGAL, but what is legal is not always morally right and yes the source should have been available sooner.

Four team members:Would that be Abbs, Hawkwind, Deep and Graham Jackson ?

It sure would be nice of you to introduce yourselves. Those of you that supposedly wanted to release the source, what, exactly, is stopping you ? Have you stolen other peoples code too ? is that why your refuse to comply with your obligations. I know it must not be too hard for you to release the source as the four of you have a copy.

I'm also curious, Graham refuses to release the source, Deep doesn't believe he is required too, so that leaves two. Two out of four was not a majority last time I checked.

http://risen3d.newdoom.com/
In Graham's defense, I feel he was trying a little to hard to perfect the code before it's release.

Please let the mysterious Graham come here and speak for himself. Ask any coder, no code is ever perfect. That however is not an excuse to comply with your obligations.

http://risen3d.newdoom.com/
It was always the intention of team to release the source, this came close on a couple of occasions when we previously considered drawing a line on the project's development. Risen3D has achieved most of what it set out to do, there was probably one more release due which would have included the source.

We do not believe you. You have had, after all, 3 years to release source.

http://risen3d.newdoom.com/
The final release was to include friendly monsters and additional weapon selection, actually the friendly monsters were coded into the v2.1.0 release. Abbspack2 weapons for Risen3D would have allowed for additional weapon selection such as grenade launcher and rifle, It would have been nice to have finalized Risen3D with these features, unfortunately not to be though.

Way to piss on your users there. "We got caught doing bad things, so we are going to punish you by saying what we might have coded in future". I'm sure they appreciate it very much.

http://risen3d.newdoom.com/
Please do not email me for the source, it is Graham's intention to destroy the Risen3D source, his reasoning is if the source can not be obtained through patience then it should never be obtained under threat.

You have no legal right to the source code you have used if you do not comply with the license. You have used that source code to create your product, which you have distributed for 3 years. You owe a source release to every single person that downloaded those binaries. Cancelling your project does not exclude you from your legal, ethical, and moral obligation to release the source for each release you have distributed.

I have emailed you for the source. I've not yet recieved a reply. Neither has anyone else I know that has asked for the source. Graham's reasoning is flawed. We are not making threats - we are enforcing our rights as the copyright holders of the source code you have used. Again, my suspicions are raised that there is other stolen code in your product.

http://risen3d.newdoom.com/
Now, everyone should be happy - I for one can finally get on with real life :))

Abbs

No. What you have done is "Oh noes - the bad people whoses work I stole want me to release the changes like their license states. Mummy please take me home - I don't want to play anymore."

http://risen3d.newdoom.com/
Btw the links to the R3D files will remain for a few more days before they are taken down.

And each download of them is another copyright violation, with each downloader entitled to the source of the binary that they have downloaded.

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Yagisan said:

Deep IS one of the Risen3D developers, his R3Dedit - it is Risen3D code, which of course comes from Doomsday. So Deep - where is the source (including the modified version of glbsp that comes with it).



OMG an new target found.

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BTW I am number four, deep is not an member of the team anymore, for an long time.

I am the mapping and modeling member. :)

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sitters said:

OMG an new target found.

The penultimate target I think. ZDaemon and Skulltag on the firing line.

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sitters said:

BTW I am number four, deep is not an member of the team anymore, for an long time.

Who is third?
Graham, Abbs, ?, you.

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entryway said:

Who is third?
Graham, Abbs, ?, you.


The team was :

Graham : coder.
Abbs : game play, tweak-er.
Hawkwind : Tester, improver.
Sitters : modeler, mapper.


Edit: of course Abbs did a lot of more

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entryway said:

The penultimate target I think. ZDaemon and Skulltag on the firing line.


I thought that myk had made it clear that neither of those ports were obligated to release their code under GPL. I know that ZDaemon at least is a big "Not fucking likely", becuase as far as I know it chooses to use ZDoom 1.22's Doom Educational License (And I think Randy also licenced ZDoom 1.22 under the GPL for another team, assuming all Raven code was cleaned out, can't remember to whom though), and while it mixed GPL code in .99, that was technically a beta release. As far as I know, ZDaemon never really had a license per-se when Raider's team closed it up. The reasons for doing so were disagreeable (see security through obscurity, for one) but legally I think they're in the clear. As for skulltag, I think it's even more simple in how Skulltag simply chose Randy's closed licence and went to town.

It's certainly a dick thing to do, and goes against the spirit of the Doom Community, but if they want to keep their source all to theirselves, they have every right to do so, as far as I'm concerned, unless someone can prove otherwise.

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Sadly they can. And if I had been more aware of the issue when I added my DECORATE code to ZDoom I would have slapped a clause onto it that mandates full source release of any program that uses the code. Unfortunately back then the issue wasn't clear to me. :(

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well, if you guys want to take it a step further, you could always report them to the free software foundation or a similiar organization that deals with these people.

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Wheee, legalism kills yet another project. I really should've banned this topic when it came up :\

Oh well, carry on.

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Lüt said:

Wheee, legalism kills yet another project. I really should've banned this topic when it came up :\


Think of it this way, it makes doomworld "cleaner" that it doesn't support illegal software (someone will have to remove the download link in the sourceports section of the site sooner or later).

It's better to get these issues over with anyway, it cleans up and makes for a happier community, more or less.

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