Final Attempt to Get Heretic/Hexen GPL'd

[Graf Zahl]

Quasar said:

Hah, are you honestly suggesting that Randy Heit ran a disassembler or decompiler on the Strife executable? Ridiculous.

This isn't ridiculous at all. He actually did disassemble the entire executable. I did so myself, btw. but didn't use that information to code anything - just to compare it with ZDoom's and SVStrife's code. ZDoom's code for the code pointers is mostly an accurate reproduction of the original Strife code. Whatever one might assume from this fact I'll leave to interpretation. ;)

[Quasar]

Well, that's interesting to say the least :P I'm assuming you guys used it simply to look for changes in existing DOOM routines like, say, A_Chase and A_Look? If so I can see how that might be useful, and no, unless you actually patched in the resulting assembly, you didn't do anything wrong.

[RTC_Marine]

maybe you should start a "strife source release" thread after this one quas :P

[Graf Zahl]

The Strife source apparently has been lost so reverse engineering is the only way to get the information. Remember, the companies that were involved in making Strife don't exist anymore.

[Kaiser]

I find it entertaining to re-invent the code rather than copying off of another source. Though, of course, I try to make the behavior of the game as close to the oringinal as possible.

I don't have assembly skills so dissasembling an executable is out of my reach.

[kristus]

There's the dehacked version of Strife you can look at too for the codepointers and frames and whatnot.

[Kaiser]

I do use sehacked for frames/thing definitions and what order they go in. Everything else is done by studying the oringinal game.

[Quasar]

Do you guys remember this news item from a long time ago?

Heretic/Hexen Source Code EULA Update [5:02 PM EST]
Raven's Kenn Hoekstra updated his .plan with word on the strict End-Users' License Agreement that was mistakenly included in the recent release of the Hexen/Heretic source code:

Regarding the Heretic/Hexen source code: According to the licensing agreement that shipped with the game, you really can't do ANYTHING with the source code. The restrictions are such that you could never legally make a mod or distribute the code or modify it or ANYTHING without Raven and/or Activision dropping the elbow on you and causing you great bodily harm. This is a mistake. The bottom line about the Heretic/Hexen source code is that you can pretty much do anything with it that people did with the DOOM source code as long as you don't charge for it or use it to make money. If there is anything you would like to do with the code, but you're not really sure about how legal it is, just drop me a line or send an e-mail to Steve Stringer at sstringer@activision.com. We'll get you on the right track. I'll see what I can do about updating the EULA as soon as possible. In the meantime, there have been over 14,000 downloads from our page alone so far! AWESOME! I can't wait to see what people do with the code.

I found it here:

http://www.bluesnews.com/archives/jan99-2.html

The problem is the no selling part, since the GPL doesn't allow us to make this restriction. Basically, I'm right. The EULA was included by accident, and the only objection is commercial exploitation. The rest of this crap is superfluous.

This may also give us someone to target as who needs to be spoken to in order to see if this can't be given an exception or something.

EDIT: GAH, Kenn Hoekstra left Raven in 2004 and now works at Pi Studios, so he's a no-go as a contact. This doesn't help >_<

EDIT 2: Steve Stringer's no longer with Activision either. So much for that :P

[Doom_Dude]

If your seeking Kenn Hoekstra he has his own site that he's been posting on. He has his hotmail account available for contact on his site.

http://www.kennhoekstra.com/

By the way he's since left Raven and is working for anouther software comapany. I've emailed him before and he's pretty easy to get ahold of.

[edit] Oops just noticed your edit. heh Even still, he may be worth contacting.

[myk]

Quasar said:
GAH, Kenn Hoekstra left Raven in 2004 and now works at Pi Studios, so he's a no-go as a contact. This doesn't help >_<

Actually, Hoekstra didn't even work on Heretic and Hexen. But he did give the email of an Activision contact (from back then, at least).

SourceReadme.txt states:
Activision and Raven are releasing this code for people to learn from and play with. The code is retains its original copyright and can not be used for profit, any work released using this code must contain credit for it.

Issues:
The DMX sound library is not included with the source due to license issues, so you won't be able to link until those sound calls are replaced or removed.

This is pretty much what should probably be considered the current license of the sources in regard to using them for mods.

Also:
"As a result of the enormous popularity of the DOOM * source code, we are extremely excited to see what the gaming public can do with the Heretic and Hexen code," says Brian Raffel, vice president of Raven Studios. "It is our hope that people will create such modifications as GL Heretic and GL Hexen and support higher resolutions, greater multiplayer capabilities, mods, and ports to new operating systems like BeOS and Linux. The possibilities are as endless as the community's imagination."

[Quasar]

Yeah but that readme still comes with a package that requires you to pass through an installer and accept the Activision EULA before you can use the source. This makes it a legally binding contract and thus it's still a problem. Restrictions on commercial exploitation aren't GPL compatible anyways.

The entire commercial explotation part of the GPL is just a pain in the ass in the first place, the way I see it. Nobody's taking advantage of that part of the license in this community. We'd be doing better without it. But there's no way to change that. It's a truck load of crap IMO.

[myk]

Quasar said:
Yeah but that readme still comes with a package that requires you to pass through an installer and accept the Activision EULA before you can use the source. This makes it a legally binding contract and thus it's still a problem.

I don't see how they could ever enforce that; it evidently wasn't anyone's intention and the EULA is referring to the game in general (maybe an attempt of reminder that by using the source you're still bound by anything else that restricts the use of the game), the note gives permission to use the source specifically for noncommercial purposes if credit is given.

The entire commercial explotation part of the GPL is just a pain in the ass in the first place, the way I see it. Nobody's taking advantage of that part of the license in this community. We'd be doing better without it. But there's no way to change that. It's a truck load of crap IMO.

Yeah, but too late for you now with Eternity. Someone starting a new project could do something like ZDoom did to acheive that, though; maybe with some license that restricts commercial use (this helps a source release to be compatible with the commercial games) but requires the source to be released with the binaries (which encourages transparency and sharing in the community).

[andrewj]

Quasar said:

The entire commercial explotation part of the GPL is just a pain in the ass in the first place, the way I see it. Nobody's taking advantage of that part of the license in this community. We'd be doing better without it.

Huh? The GPL allows commercial exploitation simply because it has nothing in it to disallow it. Perhaps you mean the "no further restrictions" statement, which I'd say is essential for the GPL to do it's job.

Perhaps you meant the Raven license, which is indeed a truck load of crap.

[Quasar]

No. I'm saying I wish that there was a variant of the GPL with a restriction against commercial distribution and that the DOOM source had been placed under it. Of course there's no such thing, and any such license created is de facto incompatible with the GPL.

If it HAD been the case, then there would be no issue with the Raven code at this point.

What if instead of relicensing the code to the general public, we could convince them to grant us an exception for use of the code in GPL DOOM ports? Could this be a possible avenue to pursue if they feel the full GPL release is not acceptable?

[andrewj]

Your turn for the silly fantasies :-).

Quasar said:

What if instead of relicensing the code to the general public, we could convince them to grant us an exception for use of the code in GPL DOOM ports? Could this be a possible avenue to pursue if they feel the full GPL release is not acceptable?

I think the main problem here is inertia, finding the right person to nudge to get something done. That something may as well be the full GPL release.

Jon has a contact, but needs a good summary. Time to write one. Here's a start:

What we want
The source code to Heretic 1 and Hexen 1 to be re-released under the GNU General Public License (GPL).

Why we want it
The Heretic/Hexen source code has been used in numerous game engines developed by hobbyists. The existing license is very restrictive, and there are questions of the legality of these engines. The existing license is also incompatible with the GPL, so the Heretic/Hexen source code cannot be legally used with engines based on the GPL'd DOOM source code.

Precedents
Hexen 2 was released under the GPL.

How we can help
We have done the grunt work of changing the existing Heretic and Hexen source code package to reflect the new GPL license. It only requires your approval.

[RTC_Marine]

what about benefits to the company releasing the source?
include that?

[Aliotroph?]

That's a good point. When I signed that petition I commented that GPLing the code would probably lead to a few extra sales of old boxes and jewel-case copies, simply because the Heretic and Hexen would be better supported by the community. I've seen quite a few people asking where they can buy DooM so they can play Legacy, jDoom, ZDoom, etc.

[Quasar]

Right. Revival of the source could easily lead to a revival in sales, although it's a lot less likely now than it would have been if this had been done right off in 1999 like it should have been.

[VinceDSS]

I wish this could happen, maybe one day heretic will get a chocolate heretic or prheretic... :)

keep us updated on your success (or not),

[CODOR]

Quasar said:
Revival of the source could easily lead to a revival in sales

Never having a copy of either Heretic or Hexen I wasn't really paying attention to this thread, but if the sources end up being relicensed under the GPL, they'll get at least one more sale of each from me :-)

[VinceDSS]

they are both great games, but I still prefer heretic because of the weapon variety :)

[LexiMax]

So did anything come of this?

[Quasar]

Certain negotiations are currently underway...

[VinceDSS]

any news ? :)

[Quasar]

Not yet. Jon said something about firing off another email, but I don't think he's done it yet.

[kooltore]

...so any news from efforts??? I think it'll be difficult, until someone offers the current owners of the Heretic/Hexen IP to buy the rights to it, and then the new owners GPL the code.

[Quasar]

Alright. Because we're getting nowhere with the email efforts, we are now going to try my open letter idea. Here is a first draft of the open letter to Raven and Activision:

http://doomworld.com/eternity/letter.html

We need help with the following things:

1. We need someone to create an attractive, professional web layout for the letter.
2. We need suggestions for improving the letter.
3. MOST IMPORTANTLY, we need signatories. Signatories for the letter need to be persons with a personal stake in the matter. Prominent community members, such as website staff etc. are invited, as are ALL source port and tools programmers.

[Scuba Steve]

Is there room for Superpants?

[andrewj]

The letter looks very good to me. You can add my name to the undersigners:

Andrew Apted <ajapted@users.sourceforge.net>
Author of glBSP <http://glbsp.sourceforge.net>
Programmer with EDGE <http://edge.sourceforge.net>

[DaniJ]

Yes, it looks very good to my eyes too. I'd be happy to lend my name to it:

Daniel Swanson: <danij@dengine.net>
Developer with the Doomsday Engine: <http://www.doomsdayhq.com>