Colorado is the place to be for school!

[DOOMENSTEIN]

I saw this as it was breaking and being followed on MSNBC, but here's the skinny on what's unfolded in the past hours since then:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060928/ap_on_re_us/school_evacuation

[Naked Snake]

Man, every time there's a NEWFLASH on Fark.com, DW doesn't need to hear about it.

Regardless, this is terrible, it is horrible that an innocent person lost their life because of a tragically pathetic fuckwit. The world is a fucked up place.

[Lizardcommando]

Ah geez, I saw that on MSN.com earlier today. Pretty fucked up shit. I would never want anyone from the Jefferson County police department handling any hostage situations. They still managed to lose a hostage and they knew they had one hostile to deal with. How fucking pitiful.

Shit, I actually made a few comics based on a hostage situation in a high school. They were either heavily armed terrorists with no clear agenda or mercenaries looking for a prototype weapon or re-activating a nuke. Then the hero would either be Lizardcommando or a female rookie Foxhound agent trained in the art of sniping and other stuff. Of course, they'd always end up saving the day and all that other cliche BS...

[Technician]

Thats hardcore.

[Sharessa]

Man, if you want to rape teenage girls, there are easier and less risky ways to do it.

[DOOMENSTEIN]

Naked Snake said:

Man, every time there's a NEWFLASH on Fark.com, DW doesn't need to hear about it.

I've never been to fark in my life, thanks.

[Technician]

You do post allot.

[Doom_user]

It sounds to me like the SWAT team hesitated to shoot the suspect and that this is what gave him an opportunity to kill that poor girl. They shouldn't have broken down the door and asked him to drop his weapon (which gives him an opportunity to fire at them and kill her), they should've broken down the door with guns blazing and they should've been shooting to kill. As far as I'm concerned, if you break into a school, take several hostages (especially children), hold them at gunpoint, rape them, and then threaten to kill them, you've forfeited your right to live.

[myk]

Doom_user said:
As far as I'm concerned, if you break into a school, take several hostages (especially children), hold them at gunpoint, rape them, and then threaten to kill them, you've forfeited your right to live.

Two problems: 1) the law wouldn't agree, 2) the team could have killed the girl themselves in such a scenario.

It'd possibly be necessary to be there to judge whether the SWAT team was lenient or not responsible. They always get shit thrown their way when something ugly does not end well, but that doesn't mean they clearly acted incorrectly.

[Naked Snake]

DOOMENSTEIN said:

I've never been to fark in my life, thanks.

What I mean, what it really boils down to, is that d00d, lay off the news or something. I know it's not against policy, but damn bro, you keep posting news that you expect us to give a shit about?

You should, IMO, only post breaking news of critical importance, not stupid shit like "OMG TO tried to kill himself", them not allowing liquids on planes unless you buy them after security and Hugo Chavez calling Bush "the devil" is NOT breaking news.

I can't stop you from posting news, but I hope that you'll realize that it's friggin' pointless, if we want the news, we'll pursue it ourselves, it's not like much meaningful discussion can be had about "OMG I can't bring shampoo to the airport".

[DOOMENSTEIN]

Update!

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060928/ap_on_re_us/school_evacuation

[Lizardcommando]

myk said:

Two problems: 1) the law wouldn't agree, 2) the team could have killed the girl themselves in such a scenario.

It'd possibly be necessary to be there to judge whether the SWAT team was lenient or not responsible. They always get shit thrown their way when something ugly does not end well, but that doesn't mean they clearly acted incorrectly.

The only reason why these SWAT guys in general are getting shit thrown their way is that they still lost a hostage just like in Columbine. That one teacher could have been saved if only the SWAT team went in and stormed the building.

These guys are supposed to be trained professionals, but they act like a bunch of rookie idiots who don't know how to assess the situation and make a decent battle plan to go in and neutralize the threat without any casualties.

[Naked Snake]

Lizardcommando said:

The only reason why these SWAT guys in general are getting shit thrown their way is that they still lost a hostage just like in Columbine. That one teacher could have been saved if only the SWAT team went in and stormed the building.

These guys are supposed to be trained professionals, but they act like a bunch of rookie idiots who don't know how to assess the situation and make a decent battle plan to go in and neutralize the threat without any casualties.

How can you speculate on their mindset, how ignorant is that? They didn't storm the building because there was no field intelligence during Columbine, they had no idea how many people were in there, what kind of traps could have been set, etc. They didn't rush in because they want to save as many lives as possible, including the ones on the SWAT team.

[Lizardcommando]

Hmm, that's true... I guess from all of the conflicting reports that they had recieved on that day, they probably had no idea how to successfully enter the building without being ambushed.

As for the current event, with technology always advancing in law enforcement and military equipment, I'd expect them to be able to nail the sick fuck with no problems. Did Colorado have some kind of budget cut for the law enforcement people?

[Ralphis]

How do you "nail" the sick fuck holding a gun to a young girl, someone's daughter, and her head? Very carefully.

[Lizardcommando]

Ralphis said:

How do you "nail" the sick fuck holding a gun to a young girl, someone's daughter, and her head? Very carefully.

Aren't there non-lethal weapons like flashbangs or something like that to take his attention away from the hostage?

From the second article:
No one recognized the man, who seemed to be dressed as a student, Cassidy said.

How do you not recognize a 53 year old man dressed as a student?

[Dr. Zin]

Lizardcommando said:

As for the current event, with technology always advancing in law enforcement and military equipment, I'd expect them to be able to nail the sick fuck with no problems. Did Colorado have some kind of budget cut for the law enforcement people?

You want to try hitting someone using someone else as a human sheild, with plenty of noise, the target and hostages panicing (sp?), likely in poor lighting conditions, while trying to avoid letting the gunman get a good shot at you, with a submachine gun built more for an high rate of fire than precision accuracy?

For all we know the gunman could have shot the girl while stunned by a flashbang or somesuch. You don't need to have you eyesight to shoot someone when your gun is pressed against the back of their head. Unlike the comic books sometimes there is no good answer to a question. Even with hindsight being 20/20, I can't see any way the law enforcement could have acted that was sure to prevent civilian casualties.

[Rotting Corpse]

Ralphis said:

How do you "nail" the sick fuck holding a gun to a young girl, someone's daughter, and her head? Very carefully.

It shows that the Jefferson county Sharpshooters are not that well trained.

I can put a bullet in a quarter from up to half a mile way with the marksmenship training I have had over the years.

Most of your trained Snipers can hit a penny or even a dime from 1/2 a mile away. Jefferson county is not that big and the Lawinforcement is not that well funded so they cant get the same training like they would in LA or NY.

For me this was a bit hard to take. Being from Colorado and going through Columbine was not easy. I was in middle school and I still remember running to the gym with every one in the school. The lights were shut off and the staff blocked the door ways with the matt rollers.

Hearing the staff talk about shots being fired in a school when your 13 is very scary. Having the school that it happend in a 20min drive away made it even more so.

I cant even put the fear all of us kids felt that day into words. You simply had to have been there to understand.

As for SWAT rushing the building. That is never a good thing. Most people that do things like that are ready and willing to die. Some like this guy plan on getting them selfs killed or taking there own life. 8 times out of ten if SWAT would rush the person would try to take out as many people as he can befor he dies. So insted of having one girl dead you could have even more. People never think of things that way. This is not the moives you cant rush in gun's blazing and have every thing turn out ok.

[Dr. Zin]

Rotting Corpse said:

It shows that the Jefferson county Sharpshooters are not that well trained.

I can put a bullet in a quarter from up to half a mile way with the marksmenship training I have had over the years.

Most of your trained Snipers can hit a penny or even a dime from 1/2 a mile away. Jefferson county is not that big and the Lawinforcement is not that well funded so they cant get the same training like they would in LA or NY.

The current 1000 yard World Record is 3.151 inches. And that was with a custom benchrest gun weighing over 16.5 pounds, not exactly available or practical for snipers.

You can't shoot what you cannot see. Even something as simple as drawing blinds would eliminate the effectiveness of snipers.

[DOOMENSTEIN]

Well, I see my picture post was helled...it was a picture of Hans Moleman in young kids clothes (in answer to the question "How do you spot a 53 year old in student's clothing?")

And on the note about me posting too much about news...it's not that I expect you guys to care, I just have nothing else decent to talk about. I'd rather post something that'd spark a discussion. I find this forum slow, but I stick by it cuz it's the only one I've encountered with intelligent conversation.

In retrospect, I wish I didn't post the one about T.O. or the one about the liquid ban being lifted at the airports, but I don't regret this one cuz that was breaking news that was being followed on all the news channels and it was a big deal for about 4 hours.

[myk]

DOOMENSTEIN said:
it's not that I expect you guys to care, I just have nothing else decent to talk about.

How true. Now that you understand the problem, you may proceed to post less, by excluding all the rubbish you add just to have something to say, or to add to your postcount. Don't expect more advice in the future. Thanks.

[VileSlay]

Lizardcommando said:

Aren't there non-lethal weapons like flashbangs or something like that to take his attention away from the hostage?

ummm...

Yahoo! article said:

He said authorities used explosives as they entered the classroom, only to have the suspect fire at officers, shoot one of the girls and then himself.

things don't always work they should. the best plans can fail. no one can account for every variable in situations like this. they did their best.

[Rotting Corpse]

Dr. Zin said:

The current 1000 yard World Record is 3.151 inches. And that was with a custom benchrest gun weighing over 16.5 pounds, not exactly available or practical for snipers.

The thing about that is it all depends on the shooter, rifle and ammo. I know about the current world record.

There is a lot of factors when dealing with just the rifle and ammo its self. Most rifles that you get in the store even if they are the same one that Lawinforcement and Armed forces use are two very difffrent rifle's. Same gose for the ammo.

Some guns even have a Max Effective Range over 1700 meters. Max Effective Range is not how far the bullet will go. Its measurement of how far away some one can be and there shoot will be still be accurate. The bullet my travel more but due to bullet drop and other factors it s next to imposable to hit any thing beyond the M.E.R. of that rifle with matching ammo.

For example the Barrett M-82A1 has a M.E.R. of 1830 meters.

[Dr. Zin]

.50 caliber rifles are largely irrelevant in a Law Enforcement situation, they are meant as anti-materiel pieces and are grossly overpowered against human targets. Yes, some snipers have used them to make astoundingly long kills, but those are more targets of opportunity, not what weapons such as the Barret were designed for. The Barrett's MER tells nothing anyway, as there is no way to qualify that.

An example of the weakness of MER is the fact that and M16's MER is 460 meters. To be issued for service an M16 only has to shoot 4 MOA. That means that at 460 meters it would shoot into an area over 18 inches in diameter, from a rest!

On a different note, Remington and Savage both offer their Police models to civilian buyers.

http://savagearms.com/le_home.htm

http://www.remingtonle.com/rifles/700p.htm

The military models can be assembled without too much difficulty either, as they are simply a Remington 700 with an aftermarket varmint style 7.62x51mm barrel and an aftermarket synthetic stock with bedding block (made by McMillan I believe). The scope is a commercial Leupold fixed 10x.

Anyway, these guns are definitely not optimized for 1000 yard shooting. Shimming the scope to get the reticule on a thousand yard target means you don't have enough adjustment to get it back down for a closer shot. Using Kentucky elevation is not conducive to good accuracy.

Super long range kills make good press, but they aren't really an effective tool or the police of the military. I can't remember where I heard this, but a SWAT sniper said that the majority of the time he was within 100 yards of the target.

And like I said before, a sniper can't hit what a sniper can't see.